Goblin Picador

[Andor]

The goblin does what he does because that's what he's designed to do, not because of his weapon. PCs won't get his bag of tricks even if they did pick up a harpoon somewhere. You're still thinking in pre-4e terms.

... If I was at your table and you told me my fighter had extra penalties on top of normal non-proficiency to use the harpoon I would accept it. If you told me it took up a minor action to hold the rope as well as my standard one to tug on it I would be fine with that. If you required special training to pick up a proficiency feat to use the harpoon I wouldn't complain.

If you told me I simply couldn't, under any circumstances use the gobbo's harpoon because that was a feature of the goblin I would walk out of your game on the spot. Perhaps you came into the game with 3e and don't know any better, but I've already put up with plenty of that crap under poor GMs in 1st and 2nd edition. No more. For that matter I put up with it in videogames where the bad guys stuff can never be recovered, but they'll drop things they never used. It doesn't make sense in a crpg, but you put up with it because you have to. In D&D if you attack me with 30 orcs wearing plate mail, I am by god going to scavange 30 suits of orc plate.

Don't tell me it's gamist and I don't understand it. I understand it. I've seen it before, and I'm sick of it. There is a minimum about of simulation that I must see in an RPG or it's not an RPG anymore, and I won't play it. Period. In the 1st and 2nd editions of D&D the situational nature of the rules meant that it depended on the individual GM whether or not a given campaign was 'simulationist' enough for me. 3rd edition fixed that. The consistency of the rules meant that I never had to put up with nunchucks that automatically disarmed you if a Flind was weilding them, but weren't even a good club in the hands of the PCs. Now we may be going back to those days, and if so it will not be a step forward, I promise you.

 

[DeusExMachina]

But I really hope that there is some seriously good explanation in the text for how you can be harpooned without major injury. I mean having something stick into you far enough through that it won't pull out when some one yanks you around the place is quite a wound!

Actually, I imagine that the harpooned character would be moving along to avoid it ripping from his flesh and causing more pain. Even a small fishhook and fishline will pull me along, simply because I don't want to endure the pain of that small hook ripping into me, but it won't really create a major wound.

 

[Dausuul]

... If I was at your table and you told me my fighter had extra penalties on top of normal non-proficiency to use the harpoon I would accept it. If you told me it took up a minor action to hold the rope as well as my standard one to tug on it I would be fine with that. If you required special training to pick up a proficiency feat to use the harpoon I wouldn't complain.

If you told me I simply couldn't, under any circumstances use the gobbo's harpoon because that was a feature of the goblin I would walk out of your game on the spot. Perhaps you came into the game with 3e and don't know any better, but I've already put up with plenty of that crap under poor GMs in 1st and 2nd edition. No more. For that matter I put up with it in videogames where the bad guys stuff can never be recovered, but they'll drop things they never used. It doesn't make sense in a crpg, but you put up with it because you have to. In D&D if you attack me with 30 orcs wearing plate mail, I am by god going to scavange 30 suits of orc plate.

Agreed. I think 4E ought to have a general guideline for DMs (and if there isn't, I may invent one) which says, "When somebody tries to use a special ability that s/he does not have normal access to, and it's reasonable that that person should be able to attempt it, apply a -10 penalty on all associated rolls." (Or -5, or whatever.)

So, for instance, if you pick up the harpoon, you can use the goblin's harpooning abilities, but with -10 on Tug of War checks and the like, because you don't have the specialized training and practice the goblin does. You won't be any good at it, you'll almost always fail, but if you really want to try--go for it.

Naturally, this could not be a hard-and-fast rule; but as a guideline for on-the-fly DM calls, I think it could work.

 

[Thaumaturge]

Right, the idea is to say "No", but in a subtle way that makes it sound like you are saying "Yes". "Yes" you can use the goblin's harpoon, but "no" you won't be any good at it. In fact, you'll be so not good at it that after a couple of rounds trying it out, you'll go back to other, more effective, maneuvers.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Dausuul]

Right, the idea is to say "No", but in a subtle way that makes it sound like you are saying "Yes". "Yes" you can use the goblin's harpoon, but "no" you won't be any good at it. In fact, you'll be so not good at it that after a couple of rounds trying it out, you'll go back to other, more effective, maneuvers.

Thaumaturge.

Precisely. This is one of the Great Secrets of successful DMing.

"Yes, you can scavenge 30 suits of orc plate. How are you hauling them back to town? Also, they're sized for orcs, whose body proportions are way different from humans--longer arms, shorter legs, bent backs. And this is plate armor, which has to be individually fitted to each wearer. You need a blacksmith just to make it fit another orc; refitting it for a human would require melting it down completely. So unless you plan to sell it as scrap iron for about one percent of list price, finding a buyer is going to be... challenging.

"But sure--if you really want to be, you are now the proud owner of 30 suits of orc plate."

 

[Thaumaturge]

Great. Fantastic. It's a "Great Secret"? I'm so screwed. Will the zombie ninjas be killing me in my sleep tonight or do I have 1d6 days?

Crap.

Thaumaturge.

 

[robertliguori]

Precisely. This is one of the Great Secrets of successful DMing.

"Yes, you can scavenge 30 suits of orc plate. How are you hauling them back to town? Also, they're sized for orcs, whose body proportions are way different from humans--longer arms, shorter legs, bent backs. And this is plate armor, which has to be individually fitted to each wearer. You need a blacksmith just to make it fit another orc; refitting it for a human would require melting it down completely. So unless you plan to sell it as scrap iron for about one percent of list price, finding a buyer is going to be... challenging.

"But sure--if you really want to be, you are now the proud owner of 30 suits of orc plate."

"So, what you're saying is that this plate is actually ultra-rare plate, since no one but orcs has a need for it, and I just need to find 30 orcish warlords who could use a set, keeping in mind that orcish warlords tend to be rich and can afford things like high-quality armor?"
"Er-"
"Come to that, who was making this plate, anyway? Who is putting the services of master armorsmiths to work armoring orcish minions? How much did it cost them to get this made, and why did they do so?"
"Um-"
"I smell an opportunity for riches and adventure! Obviously there is a grand conspiracy afoot! Let us put our current dungeon-delve on hold and investigate this mystery!"

That's the problem with on-the-fly adjucation; you need to mean it. "You can't do X because of Y." will blow up in your face unless you think through the implications of Y being true first.

 

[Dausuul]

"So, what you're saying is that this plate is actually ultra-rare plate, since no one but orcs has a need for it, and I just need to find 30 orcish warlords who could use a set, keeping in mind that orcish warlords tend to be rich and can afford things like high-quality armor?"
"Er-"
"Come to that, who was making this plate, anyway? Who is putting the services of master armorsmiths to work armoring orcish minions? How much did it cost them to get this made, and why did they do so?"
"Um-"
"I smell an opportunity for riches and adventure! Obviously there is a grand conspiracy afoot! Let us put our current dungeon-delve on hold and investigate this mystery!"

That's the problem with on-the-fly adjucation; you need to mean it. "You can't do X because of Y." will blow up in your face unless you think through the implications of Y being true first.

Well, yeah. Sometimes the players will find a logical loophole in your explanations and exploit it; that's when you have to just suck it up and find a way to cope--or, better yet, turn it to your advantage. After all, who the heck is armoring orc grunts in full plate? That sounds like an adventure hook right there...

 

[Rykion]

PC's are on bridge over canyon.
Picadors are on either side of canyon, parallel to the bridge, as follows:

P B P
P B P
P B P

(B=Bridge, ' '=space, P=Picador)

I'm sure you see where this is going. Even on a miss, a PC is pulled one square....into a nasty drop. Hide the picadors beforehand, and the PCs -- if they survive -- will never cross a bridge again.

I think it's important to point out that the pulling one square even on a miss happens with the tug of war attack. The goblin has to hit with a regular attack from the harpoon first. Then it will be able to use tug of war on its next turn assuming it's alive and the PC didn't remove the harpoon. For this encounter, I would increase the base CR, or XP as is the case for 4E, to account for the bridge environment. That means the party would be facing fewer picadors than in a normally balanced encounter. I hope 4E has specific rules for balancing controllers in dangerous environments.

 

[LostSoul]

Right, the idea is to say "No", but in a subtle way that makes it sound like you are saying "Yes". "Yes" you can use the goblin's harpoon, but "no" you won't be any good at it. In fact, you'll be so not good at it that after a couple of rounds trying it out, you'll go back to other, more effective, maneuvers.

Thaumaturge.

In other words: "I have control over this game, but I will make it seem like I don't so you can't actually call me on it."

Or am I missing the point?

Anyways...

I don't see why you can't just let a player use the same tug-of-war mechanics.