Gods or Epic. Arch-Devils and Demon Princes in BoVD

[The Serge]

Okay, we've had this conversation before (late last year was the most recent, interesting one if I recall correctly), but with the recent release of the Epic Level Handbook and the stats detailing the new Abomination, Infernals, I am now a little nervous as to the official stats and perspective WotC will take with the Lords of the Nine (Arch-Fiends) and the Demon Princes of the Abyss.

Now, so far most information suggests that they will not be any greater than quasi-deities. Deities and Demigods states explicitly that they will have Divine Ranks no higher than 0, placing them under the demi-god status. This makes them weaker than they were in 1ed, in which they were equivalent to Lesser gods, and weaker than their forms in 2ed, where they ranked from demigods to Greater gods.

My concern here arose when I read the statement in the EHL that said that Infernals are strong enough to displace the Lord and Princes. I was also concerned because the typical Infernal is a CR 26! My fear was compounded when I read a rumor that the playtesters running a group of 26th level characters beat the tar out of the Demon Prince, Demogorgon!

Huh!!!????

So, what say you, people?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi the Serge mate!

Okay, we've had this conversation before (late last year was the most recent, interesting one if I recall correctly), but with the recent release of the Epic Level Handbook and the stats detailing the new Abomination, Infernals, I am now a little nervous as to the official stats and perspective WotC will take with the Lords of the Nine (Arch-Fiends) and the Demon Princes of the Abyss.

Now, so far most information suggests that they will not be any greater than quasi-deities. Deities and Demigods states explicitly that they will have Divine Ranks no higher than 0, placing them under the demi-god status. This makes them weaker than they were in 1ed, in which they were equivalent to Lesser gods, and weaker than their forms in 2ed, where they ranked from demigods to Greater gods.

Monte has mentioned that their will be an option in the BoVD to give the Princes et al. significant Divine Ranks.

My concern here arose when I read the statement in the EHL that said that Infernals are strong enough to displace the Lord and Princes. I was also concerned because the typical Infernal is a CR 26!

Infernals are more like CR 31. Demon Lords are probably akin to Infernals in power. Demon Princes are probably more powerful.

My fear was compounded when I read a rumor that the playtesters running a group of 26th level characters beat the tar out of the Demon Prince, Demogorgon!

I am curious where you heard this!?

Personally I don't believe a party of x4 26th-level characters will beat Demogorgon (from what I have heard of the BoVD).

Remember that in playtesting a score of 20th-level characters couldn't beat Cthulhu! He killed 13 before they banished him.

I expect Demogorgon to be akin to Cthulhu in power, or not far off (considering he'll have five less Divine Ranks)

 

[Monte At Home]

Demogorgon's most current incarnation is now CR 30.

Big C could probably beat him, but that's mostly because Cthulhu is immune to a lot of Demogorgon's abilities, but not necessarily the reverse. Cthulhu is rated as CR 34. Seems about right.

 

[The Serge]

Re: Re: Gods or Epic. Arch-Devils and Demon Princes in BoVD

Hi the Serge mate!

Hello, Upper_Krust. I trust you're doing well.

Monte has mentioned that their will be an option in the BoVD to give the Princes et al. significant Divine Ranks.

Well, if that's the case, I'll be more than satisfied (as if I wasn't going to buy the book.... Yeah! Right!)

Infernals are more like CR 31. Demon Lords are probably akin to Infernals in power. Demon Princes are probably more powerful.

Really? This is based upon your CR calculator, right? Well, I know that they're terribly powerful, but I've always thought that the weakest Demon Prince and eight of the Lords of the Nine (excluding Bel) should be far stronger than the Hundred Handed Ones and they're CR 57 (where do your calculations put them?).

As I said, it was a rumor. I read on one of the WotC boards. I think it's the one on the Dark Eight that I started (surprise, surprise!) .
As I said, it was a rumor. I read on one of the WotC boards. I think it's the one on the Dark Eight that I started (surprise, surprise!) .

I am curious where you heard this!?

Personally I don't believe a party of x4 26th-level characters will beat Demogorgon (from what I have heard of the BoVD).

Remember that in playtesting a score of 20th-level characters couldn't beat Cthulhu! He killed 13 before they banished him.

I expect Demogorgon to be akin to Cthulhu in power, or not far off (considering he'll have five less Divine Ranks)

Like I said, this was a rumor but one that did catch my attention. I think this was mentioned in the WotC DDG board under the Dark Eight thread started by your's truly (surprise, surprise!).

I certainly hope you're right...

 

[TBoarder]

Umm... I'm not sure?

When I first heard that the Archdevils and Demon Princes aren't going to be deific, I was disappointed. I didn't see how a non-deific being could possibly rule entire layers of planes the way they do. I loved the idea of Asmodeus being a greater power (fallen Overpower?) from the Guide to Hell. It extended his homage to Christianty's Lucifer, without "forcing" his story into place, or invalidating D&D's polytheistic state. I thought it fit well with the then-current D&D and Planescape mythos.

Rather than complain though, I looked at who was writing the Book of Vile Darkness. I have complete faith in Monte to do something cool with the Archdevils and Demon Princes, to make them more than simply cranked-up fiends, not technically deities, but maybe something different (and hopefully cooler).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Monte thanks for stopping by!

Demogorgon's most current incarnation is now CR 30.

Thats interesting.

I envisioned it would be about CR 35 (50HD; 40 Effective Spellcasting levels*; Divine Rank 0; 6 Special A&Q = ECL 58/CR 34).

*Cleric 20/Sorceror 20.

Don't scrimp on his Hit Dice Monte! Make sure you give him two seperate tail attacks as well!

Big C could probably beat him, but that's mostly because Cthulhu is immune to a lot of Demogorgon's abilities, but not necessarily the reverse.

Thats Divine Rank for you!

Cthulhu is rated as CR 34. Seems about right.

...by my calculations (for what its worth):

Great Old One HD 42 x.75 = 31
Divine Rank 0 = ECL +8
Divine Rank 5 = ECL +20
4 Special A&Q (not related to Divine Ranks) = ECL +2

Total ECL 61 = CR 35

A difference of one (or two) points of CR is merely subjective conjecture (especially at this level), naturally.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

Hello, Upper_Krust. I trust you're doing well.

Not too bad mate - thanks for asking!

Nice to see you over on these boards for a change!

Well, if that's the case, I'll be more than satisfied (as if I wasn't going to buy the book.... Yeah! Right!)

I presume you have Deities & Demigods.

So all you really need to do is add Divine Ranks as you see fit.

Really? This is based upon your CR calculator, right?

Yep.

Solars are about CR 26, Infernals are more powerful than Solars.

Well, I know that they're terribly powerful, but I've always thought that the weakest Demon Prince and eight of the Lords of the Nine (excluding Bel) should be far stronger than the Hundred Handed Ones

Not necessarily, remember that the Hundred Handed Ones (of which there are only 3 in Greek Mythology) helped Zeus fight the Titans - and made a difference to the outcome! So obviously they probably approach Zeus in power...

and they're CR 57 (where do your calculations put them?).

I have the Hecatonchiere at ECL 113/CR 44. Zeus is ECL 153/CR 49.

Regarding the Hecatonchieres, I actually have them above the Prismatic Great Wyrm in power. Initially this might seem far fetched but remember the Great Wyrm can't hurt them physically and almost certainly can't injure them magically. Leaving the Prismatic Spray Breath Weapon to do the dirty work, while the Hecatonchiere will be dealing about 600 damage on a typical round. Essentially it only needs to get lucky and roll about 15+ '20's (out of 100) to give the Prismatic Great Wyrm a surprise. Though it looks like a protracted struggle where the dragon has contingencies and makes judicious use of heal.

As I said, it was a rumor. I read on one of the WotC boards. I think it's the one on the Dark Eight that I started (surprise, surprise!) .

Seems Monte has confirmed just that. At CR 30 a 26th-level character party would have a 50% chance of defeating Demogorgon.

Like I said, this was a rumor but one that did catch my attention. I think this was mentioned in the WotC DDG board under the Dark Eight thread started by your's truly (surprise, surprise!).

I certainly hope you're right...

I think Monte would know more about this than me!

 

[Lady Dragon]

There are of course 3 ways to stat out the Fiend Lords either as Deities with divine rank,Epic stats or just plain High level MM stats.Your likly to find people evenly divided among the 3 choices.So what is the answer is Orcus a god complete with spell granting abilities, is he an epic-level monster close to godhood but not quite or is he just another unique high level monster who has somehow convinced a bunch of crazies to worship him.

I think the best answer for the BoVD would be here our "official" position (choose one of 3 above) but here are the stats for the other two or here is the way to convert them to the other 2. So then each DM can make the choice for his own campaign.

 

[Tyros]

I've DM'd with Orcus, Asmodeus and the crew in my game, and I would say they should be much tougher than any type of creature, including dragons (gasp.). Demon lords should be on par with solars at the very least since they are unique creatures, and demon princes/archdevils should be more powerful than demi-gods and almost as powerful as lesser gods. I just got the new Deities & Demigods book, so I'm not familiar with the new system yet. But if demigods are still basically the offspring of a god and a mortal, they should be more powerful than that. After all, they are the most powerful rulers of their native planes of hell / abyss and such. I would also like to see Anthraxus again.

As an aside, just how powerful should characters be before they start challenging lesser gods or demi-gods? As the books go should any group of pcs ever be able to defeat Thor or Athena for example?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

I've DM'd with Orcus, Asmodeus and the crew in my game, and I would say they should be much tougher than any type of creature, including dragons (gasp.). Demon lords should be on par with solars at the very least since they are unique creatures, and demon princes/archdevils should be more powerful than demi-gods and almost as powerful as lesser gods.

With a nod to the 2nd/3rd Ed. introduction of Intermediate Deities I would even venture:

Demon Monarchs/Greater ArchDuke/Oinodaemon = Intermediate God
Demon Prince/Archduke/Diseased Eight = Lesser God
Demon Lord/Duke of Hell/Daemon Master = Demigod

I would also like to see Anthraxus again.

Absolutely!

Though Anthraxus has had a bit of a 'bum deal' ever since 1st Ed. So if hes gonna come back don't have him punking out to a mere Ultroloth*!

*Or if you do can we have the reasoning explained in game mechanics!?

As an aside, just how powerful should characters be before they start challenging lesser gods or demi-gods? As the books go should any group of pcs ever be able to defeat Thor or Athena for example?

I would venture that Thor is about equal to a 135th-level character.