D&D 5E Goliaths WebDM Misses the Mark, but Sparks My Curiosity

[doctorbadwolf]

So, WebDM put out a video on Christmas discussing one of my favorite races, the Goliath! I was very excited when I saw the title, as was my wife. We both have Goliath characters, and both just love the race.


Unfortunately, the episode kinda sucks. Pretty much Jim's first comment is that he has a hard time understanding the Goliath, and it goes downhill from there. I love these guys' videos, but damn this one disappoints.

Seriously, what's so hard to understand? They're big, athletic, strong, tough, reclusive, humanoids with no weird baggage or any overriding theme that being big and strong is completely secondary to. Every other +2 strength race is 90% thematically something other than strong, and being strong just serves that theme. Goliath are the only actual "big strong guy" race.

Beyond that, they're reclusive mountain dwellers who are hard to injure, are vaguely related to giants without being part of the ordning, love competition and games, hold themselves to high standards of performance and achievement, don't hold grudges or cheat, and can actually be put in many extreme environments due to their acclimation to both high altitude and extreme cold.

Athletics + acclimation means they can easily be nomadic whalers in an arctic region, actually swimming in the arctic waters, taming extreme cold creatures, etc.

I do agree with the guys that they could use either a boost to Stone's Endurance, or maybe just an additional trait, and that their culture can come across as too harsh to really make sense. But to ditch all of it and just use them as half-ogres and the like is just a huge waste of a very interesting race, IMO.

But how do you use Goliaths? ANyone around here share WebDM's view on the race?

I personally, in addition to the above, like to either give them Incan style mountain cities and hidden roads, relate them to firbolgs and add a little druidic magic, or use them mostly as is with the addition of a strong animist culture, a lot of rituals like singing a greeting to the dawn because they believe that if they don't the sun won't actually rise, take out the "ditch the weak and let them die or wander down the mountain" stuff, and add fun things like a sense of responsibility to finish what you start even if it takes you far from home.

And then I put them in semi-magical mountains because in real mountains nothing can grow at 20k+ feet up.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

As described, the Goliaths always reminded me of the Capellans from Star Trek TOS.

 

[Charlaquin]

Seriously, what's so hard to understand? They're big, athletic, strong, tough, reclusive, humanoids with no weird baggage or any overriding theme that being big and strong is completely secondary to. Every other +2 strength race is 90% thematically something other than strong, and being strong just serves that theme. Goliath are the only actual "big strong guy" race.

I agree that this episode was pretty uninspiring, but I think what you describe here is exactly Jim’s problem with the race. There are a ton of “big strong guy races,” and all of them have strong primary narrative roles to which their size and strength plays a supporting roll, where goliaths are primarily “big strong guys” and their narrative identity plays a supporting role to that. It’s not hard to see how that could seem a little boring.

 

[Leatherhead]

with no weird baggage or any overriding theme that being big and strong is completely secondary to

I think that's the part they don't get. Heck, that's the part I don't get. D&D has absurd amounts of lore. Why would you ever want to just be "The big strong guy?"

They are 70% Human-Sized Giants.
25% obsessed with Olympics.
And 5% this vaguely Logan's Run feel where they kill off the old and sick people of the tribe because it's not cost effective to keep them around.

I think I would rather play an Orc. They are big and strong and also have a history beyond being just big and strong.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think that's the part they don't get. Heck, that's the part I don't get. D&D has absurd amounts of lore. Why would you ever want to just be "The big strong guy?"

They are 70% Human-Sized Giants.
25% obsessed with Olympics.
And 5% this vaguely Logan's Run feel where they kill off the old and sick people of the tribe because it's not cost effective to keep them around.

I think I would rather play an Orc. They are big and strong and also have a history beyond being just big and strong.

I agree that this episode was pretty uninspiring, but I think what you describe here is exactly Jim’s problem with the race. There are a ton of “big strong guy races,” and all of them have strong primary narrative roles to which their size and strength plays a supporting roll, where goliaths are primarily “big strong guys” and their narrative identity plays a supporting role to that. It’s not hard to see how that could seem a little boring.

It’s...very hard to see what could seem boring about that. I...currently cannot see what could seem boring about that.

Orcs aren’t big strong guys. They’re barely bigger than a big human, and their race was born from the rage of an evil god of destruction, and they’re ugly “savages” with a history of unfortunate correlations with terrible stereotypes of real world groups.

Minotaurs are bull people.

Bugbears are basically gorilla-goblins.

Goliaths get to just explore being the big strong guy, without any garbage where some DMs expect townsfolk to either be terrified or enraged by their presence, or have to navigate being bound to an evil god or demon prince.

Like...seriously the appeal seems painfully obvious, to me.

They’re big and strong, they have cultural notes and environmental backgrounds, ties to the world topographically and in terms of being related to giants, features that change how their culture would work from humans in the same environments, but lack baggage that completely overbears the reason I would want to play a big strong race. To play a big strong character who stands head and shoulder over the biggest human, and can carry the cart when it’s wheel breaks.

 

[Leatherhead]

Like...seriously the appeal seems painfully obvious, to me.

I still don't understand. I'm not trying to be mean.

It's reading like you want to play one primarily so you can flex that sweet +2 str and Powerful Build. Everything else is just a side dish. Also you want to be different, but not so different it would cause a problem.

What would you think of playing as a Warforged Juggernaut (from back in UA when they still had Subraces)?

 

[ccs]

Well, I use the Goliaths to represent this guy & his tribesmen in my games:

I just shifted their look to resemble bigger humans from the northern areas of my world. I've kept most of their culture as written - though players can change exact details as they like for their own clans.

 

[Charlaquin]

It’s...very hard to see what could seem boring about that. I...currently cannot see what could seem boring about that.

The... lack of anything interesting? Being big and strong is not very interesting on its own.

Don’t get me wrong, I really like Goliaths, but I also think there’s a lot more to them than just being “big strong guys” that is often overlooked. It seems like you’re saying you like them because there’s not much more to them than that. Please do correct me if I’m misunderstanding you.

Orcs aren’t big strong guys. They’re barely bigger than a big human, and their race was born from the rage of an evil god of destruction, and they’re ugly “savages” with a history of unfortunate correlations with terrible stereotypes of real world groups.

That’s still pretty big, and definitely strong. They have built-in lore and cultural details (which, yes, have their roots in some ugly stereotypes, but it can be fun to recontextualize that) in addition to being big and strong, which is what makes them more interesting than goliaths for many players and DMS. They’re not just defined by physical attributes (which, again, I don’t think Goliaths are either, but that’s the perception).

Minotaurs are bull people.

Well, first of all, any anthropomorphic animal race has the potential to be interesting because animals are fascinating and complex creatures with myriad behavioral and social quirks that can be fun to translate into a more humanlike context. But also Minotaurs tie into Greek myth (or at least pop culture’s perception of it), so again, they have a lot more to them than size and strength.

Bugbears are basically gorilla-goblins.

Yeah, Bugbears are kinda one-note. I find them less interesting than Goliaths, myself.

Goliaths get to just explore being the big strong guy, without any garbage where some DMs expect townsfolk to either be terrified or enraged by their presence, or have to navigate being bound to an evil god or demon prince.

Eh, most DMs who are going to have townsfolk react poorly to orcs and bugbears are not going to have them react much better to Goliaths, so I don’t think that’s as much of a selling point as you make it out to be here.

Like...seriously the appeal seems painfully obvious, to me.

Yeah, I can definitely see the appeal of getting to play a big strong guy without a lot of extra baggage. But it also seems painfully obvious to me why a race that is (perceived to be) defined almost exclusively by their size and strength unappealing. For many people, the baggage is the fun part.

They’re big and strong, they have cultural notes and environmental backgrounds, ties to the world topographically and in terms of being related to giants, features that change how their culture would work from humans in the same environments, but lack baggage that completely overbears the reason I would want to play a big strong race. To play a big strong character who stands head and shoulder over the biggest human, and can carry the cart when it’s wheel breaks.

I get you, man. I think they’re cool too. I’m just saying, the reason you think they’re cool is exactly the reason Jim David thinks they’re kinda boring.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Goliaths are boring. Their culture is uninteresting and doesn't have the long fantasy tradition of elves and dwarves - I agree the likening to single-episode walk on aliens from Star Trek. And their special abilities are equally dull, especially since very few groups use encumbrance.

Half orcs, firbolgs, and with Eberron bugbears and orcs make much more interesting "big guy" characters.

If a player wanted to play one I wouldn't stop them, but otherwise I wouldn't "use them" at all.

 

[gyor]

Goliaths are boring. Their culture is uninteresting and doesn't have the long fantasy tradition of elves and dwarves - I agree the likening to single-episode walk on aliens from Star Trek. And their special abilities are equally dull, especially since very few groups use encumbrance.

Half orcs, firbolgs, and with Eberron bugbears and orcs make much more interesting "big guy" characters.

If a player wanted to play one I wouldn't stop them, but otherwise I wouldn't "use them" at all.

Not having a long tradition in fantasy is apart of the appeal, they are something mostly new (although the name suggests Bibilical inspiration).

And the second theme A-side from size is their extreme political Right Libertarianism.