D&D 3E/3.5 Good Cop/Bad Cop (skills use in 3.5 Ed)

ashockney

First Post
Ok, there's three players, and they've got one prisoner. One player has good intimidation, the second player has good diplomacy, the third player has a decent CHA (+2), but no ranks in either. They agree they want to do the good cop/bad cop routine on the person to get the "safest way" to the creature's boss. What do you do from a rules perspective?

Can you make Int and Dip rolls? Do you take the better of the two? Separate stacking results (ie, from hostile to unfriendly, then unfriendly to indiffferent?)

How do you handle the "aid another" component. there should be at least one +2 bonus here. Maybe two +2 bonuses to each roll. Maybe (because of the synergy) the aid another bonuses should be greater than +2?

Your thoughts?
 
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Use the "helping another" rules, IMO.

Whoever has the better skill modifier (the GC (good cop) or BC (bad cop)) should make the actual roll. If the otehr fellow can make the DC 10 "aid another" skill target, they can give the other guy a +2 bonus.

And IMO, if they pull the aid-another roll off, that's good for another +2 (or so) circumstance modifier for the whole GC/BC routine itself. ^_^
 

I'd rule it the way Pax described. The core issue is solved by aid another, which grants a +2 circumstance bonus to the "lead" roller if the support roller can hit DC10.

But there's so much synergy to the setup that if the Aid Another succeeded, I'd add another +2 synergy bonus to the lead roll, just for the idea.
 

Great idea, and I like where you're going with it.

Here's part of the challenge. Going from "hostile" to "friendly" is a DC35 check. A +2/+4 won't get them even close.

Do you think it should be this way? Or is it fair for two DC 15 checks to move from hostile to indifferent, then indifferent to friendly?
 

ashockney said:
Great idea, and I like where you're going with it.

Here's part of the challenge. Going from "hostile" to "friendly" is a DC35 check. A +2/+4 won't get them even close.

Do you think it should be this way? Or is it fair for two DC 15 checks to move from hostile to indifferent, then indifferent to friendly?
No, I think the DCs should remain where they should be. Good Cop/Bad Cop isn't going to change someone who wants to kill you into a good friend, unless you have one heck of a check. Once the PCs hit level 12, then they can start to pull off the huge switcharoos. Until then, they settle for what they can reach.

I wouldn't give the PCs several levels' worth of skill points for having caught Lethal Weapon on cable, nor reduce the DC of the relevant check by 10 points.
 

Well, it all depends on the situation. Done cold, and without support ... the most you're getting is that +4.

Now, if the party just collectivelyhanded the fellow his/her/it's posterior in open, relatively-fair combat ... that's another circumstance perhaps worthy of a small bonus.

If the PCs have authority-of-law (IOW, if they really ARE cops, or the equivalent of cops) and the fellow they're questioning is involved in criminal activities, that would be another (seperate) circumstance worthy of a small bonus.

If, during the GC/BC routine, the question-ee is bound up and helpless, and under (believable) threat of imminent physical harm ... that might be yet another circumstance bonus.

If the players pull the old '20s "bright light" full-scale interrogation routine (relative sensory deprivation, swapping off asking questions and keeping the subject, persistent physical discomfort [temperature, thirst], frightening environment (lots of nearby water for a Fire-elemental type subject, a big bonfire for a Plant-type subject, etc), even the proximity of a large number of torture devices -- wether their use is intended or not) ... if the players do any or all of those, some sort of circumstance bonus would seem appropriate as well.

So let's presume they pull the GC/BC routine initially described. They've just kicked the guy's butt, along with a few of the guy's friends' butts, and now have him hogtied in a darkened tent, filled with heat and smoke from a carefully-built fire, in which a couple iron pokers (or even a branding iron, if one is available) have been set to heat up. He's strung up in a painful but not damaging position, and the GC/BC pair go at him rapid-fire, never pausing or letting up; meanwhile, in the background, the other party members discuss the finer points of torture -- it's benefits, it's methods, the moral implications of it's use (it might help to have the paladin stand watch outside). Perhaps while one or another sharpens their knife or sword, keeping a steady rythmic sound of metal-on-whetstone going throughout the interrogation. Throughout this, the subject is denied water, though plenty of cool water is p[resent -- for the PCs to drink from, with obvious sounds of refreshment.

Now, that's a nasty situation, and not what I'd call good-aligned; but not evil, either (other than to tie him up, noone ever TOUCHES the subject; the hot irons won't ever be used; the discussion about torture is, and will only ever be, purely academic).

All told, I'd give the +4 (total) for the GC/BC routine ... +2 for overall discomfort ... +2 for visible threat of harm (the hot irons) ... +2 more for audible suggestion of harm (and believe me, the powers of imagination can make even the driest of academic discussions about torture or violent coercion VERY ... persuasive ... when you're tied up and the people discussing it are decidedly unfriendly), +2 for being put (and kept) off-balance (require all actively-participating characters to make a Concentration check to keep that bit up, btw, maybe DC 10 or 15), and maybe throw a +2 bone to the PC's if they're THAT thorough in putting the whole scenario together. ^_^

Thus, total modifiers, for all elements combined, could go as high as +14.

Now, since the above is, inherently, a multi-hourprocess, I see no reason not to let the lead PC "take 10" on their Diplomacy or Intimidate skill. So, if they have even 1 rank of the skill in question, they can make that DC of 35, without breaking a sweat. Of course, I was intentionally trying to be a bit generous with modifiers, on teh assumption that this information may be fairly important to the players, and that gettign it may be fairly key for advancing the campaign's plotline.

...

But wait!

While you're being that generous with circumstance bonusses in the PC's favor, don't forget circumstance bonusses to the DC ... the subject's non-present friends aren't likely to appreciate him caving in (and won't take "but they did X to me" for an excuse). Nor his employer, nor whoever he's giving information ABOUT -- noone likes being ratted out. And they, unlike the presumably good-aligned PCs, won't stop at threatening to hurt the subject, they'll do it ... or worse!

So, assess what sort of circumstances might increase the DC, and apply the right modifiers. If there's a high-level necromancer involved in there somewhere, that (and what he could and WOULD do for revenge), I'd say that's worth at least +5, maybe even +10 or more -- picture being tortured SLOWLY to death, then, being animated as an intelligent undead, only to face a THOUSAND YEARS of continued torture ... !

IOW, you're the DM ... right? Take into account circumstances on both sides of an issue. The static DCs listed in the book are just rough estimates, to use either as starting poitns, or "good enough" numbers to use when you don't want to slow down gameplay at all.

Just remember that they're only guidelines and suggestions, not hard and fast rules. Try practicing the trick of saying "This shouldboost success, as shoudl this, and this, and this". That way, when you tell your players "You have +X in circumstance bonusses, go ahead and roll", or "the DC is +Y higher than usual, but you can roll anyway" ... if asked by (possibly incredulous) players "what gives", you will be able to rattle off a list of assorted circumstances that modify the roll and/or DC.
 

I would leave diplomacy out of the equation. You are threatening them. Just because someone is giving them a way out of being beat up or killed doesn't change it suddenly to a situation involving diplomacy rather than intimidation. I would just go straight with the intimidation rules (which doesn't require a 35), and you gain the benefit for one round if you win your roll, or many rounds if you win your second roll. The good cop is giving an aid another bonus to the bad cops intimidate (or vice versa).
 

Mistwell, the entire point is, the "good cop, bad cop" routine. Diplomacy is the art of being NICE and getting what you want, Intimidation is the art of being NASTY and gettign what you want.

The diplomacy isn't there to convince anyone of anything, in a GC/BC situation. What it's there for, is to provide a starker contrast with the intimidation, than the baseline world would provide. IOW, to heighten the impact OF the intimidation.

Or vice versa -- the intimidator is there to provide an artificially-sharp contrast with the pleasant, work-together demeanor ... thus heightening (slightly) the impact of the diplomacy.

It works that way in real life.

Nothing in the rules requires the assisting character to use the same skill as the primary character. Only that the GM agree the skill being used to assist is appropriate.

For another example: crafting a suit of, oh, full plate armor. Normally, that'd be pure "Craft: Armorsmith". But "Craft: Metalworking" could be used to help -- the metalworker wouldn't know how to make armor on their own, but if left to handle some specific tasks ("weld these hooks here, here, and here ... then put some hinges at these points here and here"), he could help an actual armorsmith to build such a suit.

So could someone with "Craft: Leatherworking" -- they could make the harness that the armor is mounted on, manufacture the straps and such that holds it together, and even build the arming doublet ... if the armorsmith directed them as to what needed to be made, and in what general shape.
 

Pax said:
Mistwell, the entire point is, the "good cop, bad cop" routine.

I know.

Diplomacy is the art of being NICE and getting what you want, Intimidation is the art of being NASTY and gettign what you want.

Not at all, in game terms. Diplomacy is the art of changing someones attitude towards you for the foreseeable future. ACTUALLY changing their attitude. Intimidation is the art of FORCING someone to change their attitude for a brief period of time, and only while the threat remains. If you are playing good cop bad cop, you are intimidating. No amount of nicey nice talk will ACTUALLY change their attitude for a long period of time, without the threat still being in the background, because that is WHY the good cop works...because there is the bad cop. That's all intimidation.

The diplomacy isn't there to convince anyone of anything, in a GC/BC situation. What it's there for, is to provide a starker contrast with the intimidation, than the baseline world would provide. IOW, to heighten the impact OF the intimidation.

The ONLY in-game purpose for the skill called diplomacy is to actually convince someone to think differently about you, without the addition of any other factor (such as a threat forcing them to think differently about you).

Or vice versa -- the intimidator is there to provide an artificially-sharp contrast with the pleasant, work-together demeanor ... thus heightening (slightly) the impact of the diplomacy.

It works that way in real life.

No, really, it doesn't. I've been at a police interrogation. It's still all intimidation. If the police were to give you immunity, and then ask for your voluntary assistance, then it would be all diplomacy. But as long as you have the threat of going to jail if you do not talk, the "nice cop" is just using a different form of intimidation. Instead of holding a gun to your head, the nice cop is holding the bad cop to your head. Either way, it's just intimidation.

Nothing in the rules requires the assisting character to use the same skill as the primary character. Only that the GM agree the skill being used to assist is appropriate.

Except it says the opposite in the rule: "You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort." PHB 3.5 pg. 65-66.

For another example: crafting a suit of, oh, full plate armor. Normally, that'd be pure "Craft: Armorsmith". But "Craft: Metalworking" could be used to help -- the metalworker wouldn't know how to make armor on their own, but if left to handle some specific tasks ("weld these hooks here, here, and here ... then put some hinges at these points here and here"), he could help an actual armorsmith to build such a suit.

You can house rule it that way, but currently the rules would not permit a character to use one craft skill in an aid-another attempt for a different craft skill. Synergy bonus? Sure. But not an aid another.

So could someone with "Craft: Leatherworking" -- they could make the harness that the armor is mounted on, manufacture the straps and such that holds it together, and even build the arming doublet ... if the armorsmith directed them as to what needed to be made, and in what general shape.

Again, that sounds like a fine house rule for your game, but it isn't in the rules that way. You can only aid another with the same skill.
 

Pax said:
Thus, total modifiers, for all elements combined, could go as high as +14.
Pax, with all due respect, I think you're insane.

After the first time they pull this off, all the players have to do is tell you "we use the good cop/bad cop routine" and get a +14 circumstance bonus? That means that, with one tactic, you've awarded them an Intimidate/Diplomacy check 14 levels above their own. Even if you assume extenuating circumstances to cut down the bonuses (like your example of a necromancer) you're giving away the farm.

Diplomacy and Intimidate are meant become more effective with level, just like everything else. You get better by putting more points into the skill, and by leveling to raise your skill point cap. A +2 circumstance bonus is huge. A +14 bonus is craaaaazy.
 

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