Good party needs to "extract" information

Kahuna Burger said:
:eek: I'm not usually an alignment stickler, but I don't see it. If you kill someone because they don't help you, its not good. If you free someone who deserved punishement because they did you one favor, its not lawful... If I were your DM, you would probably lose one of your domains - I can possibly reconcile this with one or another but not both... especially not domain level allignment loyalty.
A Lawful-Good cleric doesn't have to be Lawful and Good all of the time. It seems like a fair action, actually. Basically, the cleric is going to either act Lawfully, by exacting just punishment, or act for Good, by showing the prisoner mercy. Whether the cleric opts for Law or Goodness is up to the prisoner. :)

And I certainly wouldn't take away a cleric's domain over it. Such a step, in my book of DMing, is only warranted after repeated gross violations of alignment.
 

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Kahuna Burger said:
If you want to keep your players and their respect, I'd strongly advise against this tactic.

The description of the answers as "brief, cryptic, and repetitive" suggests that Speaking with the Dead is supposed to be frustrating.

Not pointless or impossible, but not answers-on-a-plate either.

While a Divination might return something that needs to be interpreted carefully, a dead body answers the question you ask... even if it's not the question you meant.

I wouldn't, as a DM, go to extreme lengths to twist the wording to screw with them. But if the simple, literal wording of the question could lead to misunderstanding, I'd give a decent chance that the misunderstanding would occur.

-Hyp.
 

Lord Pendragon said:
A Lawful-Good cleric doesn't have to be Lawful and Good all of the time. It seems like a fair action, actually. Basically, the cleric is going to either act Lawfully, by exacting just punishment, or act for Good, by showing the prisoner mercy. Whether the cleric opts for Law or Goodness is up to the prisoner. :)

And I certainly wouldn't take away a cleric's domain over it. Such a step, in my book of DMing, is only warranted after repeated gross violations of alignment.

I take domain choice very seriously. Far moreso than simply having the allignment. I consider this pretty gross. And it was repeated. so... ;)

I don't buy the choosing justice or mercy argument either, its just a dressed up threat. "Do what I want or I'll kill you". Its no better when a cleric says it. Mercy is given, not paid for, and justice does not look for bribes to stay its hand.

Kahuna burger
 

Hypersmurf said:
I wouldn't, as a DM, go to extreme lengths to twist the wording to screw with them. But if the simple, literal wording of the question could lead to misunderstanding, I'd give a decent chance that the misunderstanding would occur.

-Hyp.

I don't consider your example to be a good one for questions that could be reasonably interpreted that way... Thats why I responded the way I did. "What is the password" is a simple straightforward question, and a word game answer like you proposed is just screwing your players out of a spell, IMO. And yes, I had a high level cleric who tried multiple clarifications of a simple question and just got more and more stretched word games, it a sore point. :(

Kahuna Burger
 

I don't see the issue. The basic proposition is that:
A. Some crimes (actually, it's a rather long list if you go by ancient standards) deserve death. (And the NPC in question is known to be guilty of them). Therefore, execution is the default option.
B. A character may legitimately grant mercy to a villain who shows some willingness to make restitution (by willingly helping to oppose the evil he served).

or (and I think that this is where you are having the difficulty)

C. A character may legitimately impose a lesser penalty than is justified (as per A) if imposing the lesser penalty enables him to gain information that will enable him to save lives or bring to justice villains who could not otherwise be safely brought to justice.

It's basically the same logic that RL prosecutors use to justify plea bargains, reduced sentences, and/or immunity in return for testimony. I can see some hyper-lawful characters who think that full retribution must be visited on every villain no matter what might object to the concept, but it certainly doesn't seem beyond the pale for any lawful good character. (And, I must say, my cleric has neither the law nor the good domain and has not consistently been lawful (he's more lawful than neutral though)).

As to whether it amounts to a threat "do what I want or I kill you", I suppose it could be boiled down to that level. (Although "I plan on killing you but might change my mind given sufficient reason" might be a better formulation). However, I think that the moral quality of the threat is very much changed if the person making it has the right to do what he threatens to do. To use a different example, I would be wrong to tell someone "give me my money or I'll beat you up" because I have no legitimate right to beat you up. On the other hand, if I were to say "If you insist on selling X, Y, Z, I will boycott your store and urge others to do likewise," I am threatening action that is within my legitimate rights. Boycotting someone is not nice, but nice is not the same thing as good and there's nothing inherently wrong with threatening a boycott. The moral quality of the boycott threat would depend upon the moral quality of the course of action demanded. (Boycott because someone is exploiting desperate workers=good; boycott because someone won't cover up your dirty dealings=bad). So, if you insist on boiling it down to that level, there's nothing inherently wrong with threats.

Kahuna Burger said:
:eek: I'm not usually an alignment stickler, but I don't see it. If you kill someone because they don't help you, its not good. If you free someone who deserved punishement because they did you one favor, its not lawful... If I were your DM, you would probably lose one of your domains - I can possibly reconcile this with one or another but not both... especially not domain level allignment loyalty.

I was doubly shocked to hear that more than one LG cleric considered this an acceptable tactic.

Kahuna Burger
 
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Kahuna Burger said:
I don't buy the choosing justice or mercy argument either, its just a dressed up threat. "Do what I want or I'll kill you". Its no better when a cleric says it. Mercy is given, not paid for, and justice does not look for bribes to stay its hand.

"I'm sorry... did I say your money or your life? Sorry, slip of the tongue..."

-Hyp.
 

I'm not usually an alignment stickler, but I don't see it. If you kill someone because they don't help you, its not good. If you free someone who deserved punishement because they did you one favor, its not lawful... If I were your DM, you would probably lose one of your domains - I can possibly reconcile this with one or another but not both... especially not domain level allignment loyalty.

I was doubly shocked to hear that more than one LG cleric considered this an acceptable tactic.
"If you kill someone because they don't help you, its not good." I was not going to kill them *because* they didn't help me -- their death was already sentenced. They could get mercy if they offered help to our greater good cause. Big difference.

"If you free someone who deserved punishement because they did you one favor, its not lawful." I was not going to free them because they did me a *favor*. They would get mercy if they offered to help our greater lawful cause. Another big difference.

What would you suggest a LG character do in that situation?

Are you suggesting that Law and Goodness contridict each other, and following one means breaking the other? Thinking like that is what screws over more paladins than any deliberate action by the Player.

Quasqueton
 

Kahuna Burger said:
... and a word game answer like you proposed is just screwing your players out of a spell, IMO.

No, it's screwing them out of one question, from a spell that grants one question per two caster levels.

And given that it states answers are "repetitive", it would seem you can expect to waste the odd question gaining information that you'd already received in answer to a previous question.

I don't condone the experience you had, where attempts at clarification provoked more tortuous answers. But I do think that someone should walk away from a Speak With Dead with a/ the information they were seeking, and b/ the feeling that they've been banging their head against a brick wall to get it.

-Hyp.
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
or (and I think that this is where you are having the difficulty)

C. A character may legitimately impose a lesser penalty than is justified (as per A) if imposing the lesser penalty enables him to gain information that will enable him to save lives or bring to justice villains who could not otherwise be safely brought to justice.

It's basically the same logic that RL prosecutors use to justify plea bargains.)

There's no difficulty at all, I simply disagree with the you on this. Its not difficult, I disagree with people all the time. ;)

I do not consider plea bargins particularly lawful, especially when it is to gain information. It turns the justice system into a kind of game where you keep score with convictions and buy a bigger "score" with a sacrifice play. This is a philisophical issue, and I see where you are coming from to some extent, but my disagreement is basic and not based on a lack of understanding.

So we might as well just drop the subject, but the warning is out there that this tactic will not fly with all DMs.

Kahuna burger
 

I don't buy the choosing justice or mercy argument either, its just a dressed up threat. "Do what I want or I'll kill you". Its no better when a cleric says it. Mercy is given, not paid for, and justice does not look for bribes to stay its hand.
Do what I want or I'll kill you?

Bribes?

Threat?

Are you intentionally twisting my words and actions, or are you really that anal* when judging a character's actions? In your eyes, how can a LG character possibly make decisions?

"If I do this, it will be Lawful, but not Good."

"If I do that, it will be Good, but not Lawful."

Again, I ask, what do you suggest as a better way of handling the situation. Note that we were not asking for directions to the liquor store. We were trying to get information that would aid us in stopping a terrible group of people in both instances.

Think of plea bargaining with a terrorist to get information on the next target. Carry out the sentence without asking for the info means no Good can possibly come about. Carrying out the sentence after getting the info means breaking an honorable agreement. Sounds like you would make this a lose-lose situation for the LG character.

*"Anal" is a rather harsh and inflammatory word, I know. I don't mean it that bad, but I just can't think of a lighter word to convey my meaning. I'll edit "anal" for a better word if someone tells me one. Sorry.

Quasqueton
 

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