Goodbye Haste! Hello New Mandatory Spell!

[ThirdWizard]

Hit him with a disintegrate and if he's still alive, that quickened scorching ray will kill him.

Or heck, hit him with a normal scorching ray followed by the quickened one if you really think he'll make the saving throw! That's a lot of damage that he can't do much about. The front line fighters should finish him off quickly, and they'll thank you since he'll be much more squishy for them.

 

[Darkness]

(disintegrate's chance for requiring a massive damage save)

Ok, that's a good point.

Let me look at that.

45% of the time, the Fighter in my example will blow his save against disintegrate.

22d6 will cause 50+ damage except on a very bad roll (average of <2.27 per die).

Depending on which version of the Fighter we use (i.e., Fort +11 or Fort +13), he'll make the massive damage save (DC 15) either on a 4+ or on a 2+ (85% or 95%).

So yeah, it's unlikely but of course theoretically possible.

- Even if, like me, you don't count a 1 on a save as an automatic failure Darkness

 

[reapersaurus]

Darkness - very good analysis.

So after that analysis, and how Scorching Ray holds up.... noone sees a problem with a 2nd level spell competing favorably with a 6th level spell?

 

[Darklone]

Nope. I houseruled similar spells already.

IMC, I have two guys in the group already with elemental resistance fire... at least 10 points from each ray screw that spell pretty fast.

And a level11 fighter who is not even a little bit protected against such things is dead meat anyhow.

Sure, E-sub may spoil this... but that's a problem of the feat, not the spell.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Don't lose sight of the fact that it doesn't max out at 12d6, it maxes at 3x4d6. Thus it is far more subsceptible to fire resistance magics.

maximised scorching ray as a 5th level spell sounds great - 72 points damage! but if you are targetting another 11th level caster who is using the 2nd level defensive spell (which now scales with level) resist elements, your 3x24pts damage all bounce harmlessly off his 30 fire resistance! A 5th level empowered fireball would be much more likely to do him serious damage since it would be 15d6 for the same spell slot, average 52... which blasts a nasty 22 damage through the wizards resist elements.

...nobody else had mentioned this yet, and I think it is a significant additional limiting factor on the spell.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Darkness - very good analysis.

So after that analysis, and how Scorching Ray holds up.... noone sees a problem with a 2nd level spell competing favorably with a 6th level spell?

I've got to correct you here... a 2nd level spell plus a feat comparing etc. etc.

The main problem here is IMO what they have done to disintegrate. Sure, change it to damage, but then ditch the ST. A roll to hit plus a ST is too much for the spell IMO

 

[Jhyrryl]

Darkness - very good analysis.

So after that analysis, and how Scorching Ray holds up.... noone sees a problem with a 2nd level spell competing favorably with a 6th level spell?

So reapersaurus , I get the impression that you don't think it's proper for a metamagic feat to bring the power of a low-level spell up to par with spells of an equivelent level for the spell slot that the meta magicked spell occupies. Or are you still contending that the quickened scorcing ray is too powerful as a 6th level spell slot? What slot do you think it should fit in?

 

[Merlion]

Personaly, I think having one really good offensive 2nd level spell is nice for a change. I mean all we really had before was Melfs Acid Arrow, which has its uses dont get me wrong, but theres not really been a good "blasty" 2nd level spell till now.
And no, I dont think that a quickend 2nd level spell comparing well to a 6th level spell is bad, since a quickend 2nd level spell essentialy is a 6th level spell.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Incidentally I would have thought that a nicely balanced 2nd level blasting spell might have been simply 1d6 per level, max 10d6, single target, Reflex half.

i.e. like a fireball/lightning bolt but only affecting a single target. That seems good enough to drop it a level to me.

Ah, if only they paid me to design these things

 

[reapersaurus]

I've got to correct you here... a 2nd level spell plus a feat comparing etc. etc.

you guys are disappointing....

Darkness' figures laid it out in black and white.

There are 2 comparisons already out there - you can address either one:
1) A Quickened Scorching Ray is a better damage spell than a Disintigrate, due to it being a free action.
2) You don't need to Quicken it. Just compare the 2nd level spell and a 6th level spell.

Plane - you don't see a problem with your proposed 2nd level fireball that affects one target? A wizard causing avg 35 damage AT RANGE to tanks (anything that has low REF save) with no to-hit needed? They get tons of 2nd level spells - that's not much of a resource drain. I'm sure a fighter would love to have a ranged weapon that he could just grab off the shelf and do 10d6 with.

I'm realizing how addicted to magic the default approach to D&D is. I think I'm done on this thread - it's getting obvious that I'm playing a different game than some of you.

This has just caused me to come up with Fighter alternatives to magic, that would allow them to use their BAB to fuel damage-dealing attacks (ooh... a limited # of times per day). I'll post in House Rules.