MerakSpielman
First Post
reapersaurus: Don't go overboard here. Casters have a limited number of spell slots, and they're not going to fill them ALL up with this spell. It's not like having an "off the shelf" weapon at all.
Goodbye Haste! Hello New Mandatory Spell!
- Thread starter El_Gringo
- Start date
Skinwalker
First Post
reapersaurus said:
You could call it Power Attack.
Magus Coeruleus
Explorer
In a game I played with 3rd level characters, the sorceror (not me) used Scorching Ray a total of 4 times and hit twice. It seemed quite reasonable, because hitting was far from a sure thing, but when he did hit, things got really toasted. The fact that he had to be up close and personal was quite relevant. This was only two game sessions, but I highly suggest anyone with questions or concerns about the balance of the spell really try it out for a while in the game, because some factors just don't really hit home until you play with them. Just consider this: at his level (3rd) he could have chosen to fire Magic Missiles in each of those rounds. He would be guaranteed to hit, doing 7hp of damage on average ((1d4+1) * 2) from up to 130' away, for the cost of a first level spell slot. On average, his Scorching Ray would do twice as much damage (average of 14 on 4d6) for a spell of twice the level, IF he hit (which he did half the time), from within 30', and his opponent was not fire resistant/immune, incorporeal, etc. It seemed pretty balanced to me.
Mike Sullivan
First Post
It's a very, very, very different spell at low levels and high levels, due to the mechanics of a ranged touch attack.
A 3rd level Wizard has a BAB of +1, and a 4th level Sorceror has a BAB of +2. The damage potential of the spell at that level is reasonably solid (4d6), but even with a +2 dex modifier, against an opponent with a flat 10 touch AC, you're still only hitting 70-75% of the time. That makes it a very chancy spell, having two notable failure points: fire resistance (the most common kind, of course) and failing your attack roll.
At 11th level, a Wizard has a BAB of +5, and with a Dex of +2, has a +7 to hit with this puppy. That means that against a touch AC of 10, he's hitting 90% of the time... And the "behemoth" approach of vanilla D&D (ie, the tendancy to fight large, physically powerful monsters) means that touch AC's don't scale up at anything like the rate that normal AC's do -- in fact, size penalties may mean they actuall scale down in some cases. Failing your attack roll becomes much less of a concern.
A dextrous opponent will still ruin the day of a Sorc or Wiz who's relying on Scorching Ray as their primary damage source, though.
A 3rd level Wizard has a BAB of +1, and a 4th level Sorceror has a BAB of +2. The damage potential of the spell at that level is reasonably solid (4d6), but even with a +2 dex modifier, against an opponent with a flat 10 touch AC, you're still only hitting 70-75% of the time. That makes it a very chancy spell, having two notable failure points: fire resistance (the most common kind, of course) and failing your attack roll.
At 11th level, a Wizard has a BAB of +5, and with a Dex of +2, has a +7 to hit with this puppy. That means that against a touch AC of 10, he's hitting 90% of the time... And the "behemoth" approach of vanilla D&D (ie, the tendancy to fight large, physically powerful monsters) means that touch AC's don't scale up at anything like the rate that normal AC's do -- in fact, size penalties may mean they actuall scale down in some cases. Failing your attack roll becomes much less of a concern.
A dextrous opponent will still ruin the day of a Sorc or Wiz who's relying on Scorching Ray as their primary damage source, though.
I dont think Scorching Ray compares favorably at all to Disintegrate, they are 2 different damage spells (different optimal targets) from 2 different schools.
Scorching Ray looks really powerful but its mostly because people assume the RTA will hit, perhaps because in 3e there were spells (more spells?) with RTA and a saving throw.
As was stated, things to factor in when comparing Scorching Ray to other higher level Rays (Polar or Disintegrate):
3 x 4d6 /= 12d6, especially when it comes to the new way Elemental Resistance is done (Fire Resist 10 is against every attack, not total for the round).
3 seperate attack rolls is 3 chances to crit, but also 3 chances to miss. Scorching Ray is best against things with low Touch ACs and things that don't have Fire Resistance. Against a buffed mage you are almost always better off using the Disintegrate, whereas against the Fighter the scorching ray may be a better tactic (depending how many contingencies the fighter has planned for).
Wiz/Sor have crappy BAB, and dont have the resources to get obscene Dex (usually favor Con), hence even at high levels less than a 5 might mean a miss.
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability still shuts it down, and it doesn't sap away much from Spell Turning. The new Spell Immunity is also very effective against trying to use lower level spells.
I think its on the extreme end of what a 2nd level spell should do, and think it would still be a bargain for 3x3d6 rays.
Technik
Scorching Ray looks really powerful but its mostly because people assume the RTA will hit, perhaps because in 3e there were spells (more spells?) with RTA and a saving throw.
As was stated, things to factor in when comparing Scorching Ray to other higher level Rays (Polar or Disintegrate):
3 x 4d6 /= 12d6, especially when it comes to the new way Elemental Resistance is done (Fire Resist 10 is against every attack, not total for the round).
3 seperate attack rolls is 3 chances to crit, but also 3 chances to miss. Scorching Ray is best against things with low Touch ACs and things that don't have Fire Resistance. Against a buffed mage you are almost always better off using the Disintegrate, whereas against the Fighter the scorching ray may be a better tactic (depending how many contingencies the fighter has planned for).
Wiz/Sor have crappy BAB, and dont have the resources to get obscene Dex (usually favor Con), hence even at high levels less than a 5 might mean a miss.
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability still shuts it down, and it doesn't sap away much from Spell Turning. The new Spell Immunity is also very effective against trying to use lower level spells.
I think its on the extreme end of what a 2nd level spell should do, and think it would still be a bargain for 3x3d6 rays.
Technik
In my opinion one should always compare the most favourable situations when discussing balance - as long as that most favourable assumption is a reasonable one to make. So you should never determine the power of scorching ray by looking at a 3rd level sorcerer. Touch ACs are generally speaking a joke at high levels, especially since if you design a sorcerer/wizard around rays the character will have point blank shot, precise shot and energy substitution.
One thing, why do we discuss quickened scorching rays? Just use a maximized scorching ray. How many 5th level spells can deal 72 damage - period? Now add to this a quickened scorching ray and we have a sure kill for most opponents. Granted, it requires 3 touch attacks and the opponent should not have energy resistence or protection from elements, but it is not nearly as risky as casting a distintegrate on a fighter.
One thing, how often do sorcerers move away more then 40 ft. from the main group? Perhaps it is a hindrance at level 3, but certainly not at level 12 (the spell has a 60 ft. range). I practice though I rarely have seen wizards/sorcerers get that far away from the fighters. The one time it did happen the group was severely punished because of it since the fighters were in no position to help the poor wizard who was attacked by quick opponents and who only managed to get away by one very luck roll. In another campaign, the sorcerer/fighter (Atk roll for ranged attacks is +7 at 7th level) happens to be in the thick of the fighting if only to aid another with his glaive. Sorceres in 3.5 can do the same with their long spear. How often do opponents attack the irritating but not too dangerous opponents when facing a heavily armed high damage output opponent as well?
One thing, why do we discuss quickened scorching rays? Just use a maximized scorching ray. How many 5th level spells can deal 72 damage - period? Now add to this a quickened scorching ray and we have a sure kill for most opponents. Granted, it requires 3 touch attacks and the opponent should not have energy resistence or protection from elements, but it is not nearly as risky as casting a distintegrate on a fighter.
One thing, how often do sorcerers move away more then 40 ft. from the main group? Perhaps it is a hindrance at level 3, but certainly not at level 12 (the spell has a 60 ft. range). I practice though I rarely have seen wizards/sorcerers get that far away from the fighters. The one time it did happen the group was severely punished because of it since the fighters were in no position to help the poor wizard who was attacked by quick opponents and who only managed to get away by one very luck roll. In another campaign, the sorcerer/fighter (Atk roll for ranged attacks is +7 at 7th level) happens to be in the thick of the fighting if only to aid another with his glaive. Sorceres in 3.5 can do the same with their long spear. How often do opponents attack the irritating but not too dangerous opponents when facing a heavily armed high damage output opponent as well?
