Gore Confusion

[0-hr]

I'm playing a minotaur (using Savage Species & 3.5) and have a question:

How do I come up with my Gore attack bonus? When I use my Gore attack in a full attack does that effect my bonus?

Looking at the Mino in the MM it looks like when I attack with a gore during a full attack it affects the Gore but not the great axe. When a mino just uses his Gore it is at a +9 but in a full attack it is at a +4. However the numbers don't add up correctly for any of the bonuses. I keep getting that the Mino should have a +10 (Base attack 6+Str +4) to his attack not a +9.


Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[SlagMortar]

Minotaur gets a -1 to hit from being large size.

 

[mikebr99]

Are you taking into account that large size creatures have a -1 to attack?

Male Minotaur MonH6; CR 4;
Large Monstrous Humanoid;
HD 6d8+18; hp 51;
Init +3; Spd 30 ft/x4;
AC 17 (+3 dex, -1 size, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14;
Base Atk/Grapple +6/+14;
Full Atk +9/+4 Two-handed (3d6+6;20/x3, Greataxe), +4 Secondary Natural
(1d8+2;20/x2, Gore), +9/+4 Primary Natural (3d6+4;20/x3, Greataxe), +4
Secondary Natural (1d8+2;20/x2, Gore);
SA&SQ ;
AL LG; SV Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +6;
Str 19(+4), Dex 16(+3), Con 16(+3), Int 8(-1), Wis 12(+1), Cha 10(+0);


Mike

 

[0-hr]

As a standard action, the mino can use the axe OR the gore, but as a full attack he can use the axe, and iterative axe attack, AND the gore.

That iterative attack and then a secondary attack just doesn't seem right to me. Where is that mix-n-matching explained rules-wise? Is that the normal way critters work?

 

[RigaMortus2]

As a standard action, the mino can use the axe OR the gore, but as a full attack he can use the axe, and iterative axe attack, AND the gore.

That iterative attack and then a secondary attack just doesn't seem right to me. Where is that mix-n-matching explained rules-wise? Is that the normal way critters work?

You can find it here under Natural Weapons.

It is also covered in the FAQ:

What happens when creatures use their natural weapons as secondary attacks along with a manufacturedweapon? For example, lizardfolk have two claws that also serve as hands. What happens when they wield a onehanded weapon in one hand and nothing in the other? Do they lose both claw attacks in exchange for their attacks with the weapon?


Wielding a manufactured weapon doesn’t prevent a creature from using all its natural weaponry, provided that the creature is using the full attack action and the additional natural weapons are free.
The example lizardfolk can’t make a claw attack with the “hand” that holds its weapon, although it does get to attack with the weapon itself. But, if it’s using the full attack action, it can use its other claw as a natural secondary attack (–5 to attack rolls, half Strength bonus), and can also bite as a natural secondary attack. In effect, the lizardfolk is using its normal full attack routine with the manufactured weapon attack substituted for one claw attack.


Which is why the minotaur stat block that mikebr99 looks the way it does. His axe (a manufactured weapon) is the primary attack. He still gets to make iterative attacks with it (provided he is capable of making a full attack action). So that is +9/+4. Per the FAQ, he is still allowed to attack with his Gore, but it is considered a secondary attack (if he had other natural attacks, such as a Bite, he could do that too). Since it is a secondary attack, he attacks at his BAB (+9) and takes a -5 penalty. This is where the +4 comes from. He also only applies half Str to the attack (which is why it is 1d8+2).

Get it?

 

[ElectricDragon]

Except that when using just an attack action and using the gore attack, the bonus to damage from Strength should be +6 (1 1/2 Str bonus for sole natural attack) unlike what it says in the MM.

Attack options:

Greataxe +9 melee (3d6+6, 20/x3); or
Gore +9 melee (1d8+6, 20/x2)

Full Attack Options:

Greataxe +9/+4 melee (3d6+6, 20/x3); or
Greataxe +9/+4 melee (3d6+6, 20/x3) and Gore +4 melee (1d8+2, 20/x2); or
Gore +9 melee (1d8+6, 20/x2)

Ciao
Dave

 

[0-hr]

Thanks all, it makes sense now.