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[Knight Otu]

You suspect? Do you not actually have the book?

If I had it, I would have argued using the book, wouldn't I? And why should I have assumed that the LA/ECL system works differently in UA before reading you second post? The ECL rules are complicated, and many people miss one aspect or another. Either you or the designers could have made an error in reading or writing. I've simply made a guess using all available evidence.

That's nothing to roll eyes at.

As for your second post, I don't buy CR's explanation. Why use a different system and risk inconsistencies, when you have a working (flawed, but working) system worked out already? I really think THAT is something bad. I think you can accept that.

 

[tecnodemon]

Well guys and gals, I go to read/flip through the book Wesnday and what I read, i liked. The way they the "Shadowkind" races or what there called species were almost exactly the same as D&D races with few changes.
The races get instead of the standard class features they get skill bonus, bonus feats and something else I can not rember though. They do have Ability modifiers (+/- to Dex, Str, Con etc.), base speed and vision type.
The different races you can play are the standard D&D races with additions of Goblins, Orc, Yuan-Ti or Snake-blooded for the Asian myth, Orge and Kobold. There might be a few species but like I said, I can not remeber.

So that is my report from what I can remeber of the book, so enjoy...

 

[Felon]

And why should I have assumed that the LA/ECL system works differently in UA before reading you second post? The ECL rules are complicated, and many people miss one aspect or another. Either you or the designers could have made an error in reading or writing. I've simply made a guess using all available evidence. That's nothing to roll eyes at.

Well, the evidence you had was me stating explicitly that they worked differently. Your response was to assume that I simply didn't know what I was talking about, as if Hit Dice + Level Adjustment was a tough concept for me to grasp.

As for your second post, I don't buy CR's explanation. Why use a different system and risk inconsistencies, when you have a working (flawed, but working) system worked out already? I really think THAT is something bad. I think you can accept that.

I think there was a really bad decision made there, that's for sure. Now, the typical D&D 3e class doesn't get new features every level like D20M characters do (a strong hero gets a much better deal than a fighter, fot instance), so I can buy them tweaking the ECL's for UA. But simple common sense would indicate that a species' Level Adjustment shouldn't be lower than its Hit Dice.

 

[Luddite]

Level Adjustment and UA

I just got my copy and took a look at the Shadowkind and those which grant extra hit die to start.

Unlike DnD there are three major difference between the extra hit dice and a real level in UA.

In DnD your Hit dice added to your BAB, and also would be used in calculating your max Ranks in a skill. In UA, the Species attack bonus is NOT added the character's BAB, it is a Species bonus.

Two, a shadowkinds max ranks is a skill is still limited only their class levels. And a shadowkind does not get any skill points for their extra HD.

Finaly, A Shadowkind with extra HD does not recieve feats with the extra HD. A characer in d20Modern/UA recieves feats based on thier total class levels.

So it is not realy sporked...Wizards just did a 180 from DnD's 1HD == 1 Level.


-The Luddite.

 

[Knight Otu]

First, I want to apologize for the tone of my previous post. I realize that I went overboard with it. I did not want to insult you in any way.

Well, the evidence you had was me stating explicitly that they worked differently.

The evidence I based my assumption on is the way it is done in D&D, specifically as described in Savage Species. Apart from that, we should propably let that issue rest, ok?

As for Luddite's post - that makes matters slightly better, but I still think that ECL adjustemts should never be below the actual HD of the character. As an added problem, that increases the inconsistency problems again.

 

[Luddite]

As for Luddite's post - that makes matters slightly better, but I still think that ECL adjustemts should never be below the actual HD of the character. As an added problem, that increases the inconsistency problems again.

It does irk me too that Wizrads keeps changing their minds on how to handle and equate "Monster Races." Effectivly everything they set up and said in Savage Speices is now completely invalidated for d20 Modern. I am now wondering how DnD 3.5 will change the whole ELC/Level Adjustment issue. Will Savage Spieces be rendered useless in less then 6 months of printing?

So the best thing to do is forget everything about ECL/Level Adjustment that has been published in DnD and focus on d20Modern/UA.

So to determine if a Level adjustment is fair we have to ask the following? Would I rather Human <STAT> Hero N or a Bugbear <STAT> Hero N-2?

Right now I will just hit the highlights of the Strong Hero.

Lets assume that the unmodified stats are the same.

Human Strong 3 v. Bugbear Stong 1

HD: 3d8 v 4d8 + 4
BAB: +3 v +1
Melees Atk: +3 v +5
Range Atk: +3 v +4
Feats : 4 (level 1, 3, Strong 2, Human bonus) v 1 (level 1)
Talents: 2 v 1
Action points* : 6 v 5

(*) this does not count and remaining APs saved from previous levls.

If I were making a Basher, the Bugbear would be better. But the Human has a lot more options to specialize by the choice of feats and talents.

Now lets move to level 6:

Human Stong 6 v Bugbear 4
HD: 6d8 v 7d8+7
BAB: +6/+1 v +4
Melee: +6/+1 v +8
Ranged: +6/+1 v +7
Feats: 7 (level 1,3,6, Strong 2,4,6, Human) v 4 (level 1,3, Strong 2.4)
Talents: 3 v 2
Action points: 8 v 7

This is where it gets interesting. At this point the Human can now make two attacks, where the bugbear is still limited to one attack. The Human still has 3 feats and one Talent advantage over the Bugbear as well as max skill ranks 2 points higher.

At this point, you can only say that the Bugbear would be better to make only specific architypes of the Strong Hero, like a Brute or Basher. I think a human would make a better "Camando" type since the human will have more skills available.

Yes, on first glance, 3 HD for only 2 levels flys in the face of what Wizards did with DnD, but this is not DnD.

-The Luddite

 

[Felon]

Re: Level Adjustment and UA

I just got my copy and took a look at the Shadowkind and those which grant extra hit die to start. Unlike DnD there are three major difference between the extra hit dice and a real level in UA. In DnD your Hit dice added to your BAB, and also would be used in calculating your max Ranks in a skill. In UA, the Species attack bonus is NOT added the character's BAB, it is a Species bonus. Two, a shadowkinds max ranks is a skill is still limited only their class levels. And a shadowkind does not get any skill points for their extra HD. Finaly, A Shadowkind with extra HD does not recieve feats with the extra HD. A characer in d20Modern/UA recieves feats based on thier total class levels.

So it is not realy sporked...Wizards just did a 180 from DnD's 1HD == 1 Level.

Oh, it's pretty darn sporked. Sporked to the extreme.

Portraying the fact that shadowkind don't receive skill points or feats for their hit dice as some sort of big drawback is fairly ludicrous since that's just a result of the fact that their hit dice don't cost them levels in the first place, thus allowing them to get skill points and hit dice from character levels that they wouldn't have otherwised gained. Considering that d20M class levels grant a bonus feat every other level and at least as many skill points as a monster class, there's precious little downside.

Equally trivial is making a distinction about receiving a species bonus to attack rolls instead of an actual BAB bonus as if it were a major disadvantage. Now please don't go pointing out that that means Shadowkind won't get as much mileage out of Power Attack as they otherwise would. That's a small price to pay for, say, +4 or +6 to Str (not even taking into account all of the other racial perks).

Oh, and a race getting more hit dice than it's Level Adjustment? That alone buys you a one-way ticket to Sporksville.

Bottom line, shadowkind race's will have the greatest appeal to the worst kind of powergamers.