Grading At-Will Powers

[FadedC]

On the Rogue abilities:

Why no love for Sly Flourish? Do people not realize it can be used with a ranged weapon unlike Piercing Strike and Riposte Strike?

Oh, and there any errata on Riposte Strike yet? Because there doesn't seem to be any range limitations on the riposte interrupt attack.

The power has the melee keyword and no listed range. This means that all attacks that you make with it have a range equal to the range of your melee weapon (most likely 1, unless you've somehow found a light blade with reach).

 

[Mort_Q]

nevermind

 

[Leatherhead]

The power has the melee keyword and no listed range. This means that all attacks that you make with it have a range equal to the range of your melee weapon (most likely 1, unless you've somehow found a light blade with reach).

That is an interesting theory. I would agree it could logically work that way, but the immediate interrupt attack caused by riposte strike hitting is not a secondary attack, it is a consequence of the power hitting. If it was a secondary attack I would have never bothered with it, because secondary attacks do have the clause about using the same range as the power's first attack unless otherwise noted.

Also, we need a common term other than effect to describe what happens when a power hits and does something, otherwise talking about powers is going to get confusing fast.

 

[KarinsDad]

I guess this depends on your DM, but I find a lot of the area denial arguments about CoD unpersuasive. If a enemy has to choose between losing a turn or getting blasted by range another round vs simply charging through the daggers, I think he is going to go right through them. Similarly to try and finish off that pesky wizard that is whittling him down, its probably well worth the damage just to get flanking and smack the squishy with his big attack.

The daggers have no status effect, its usually going to be a measley 2 or 3 HP of damage which is not much against the inflated HP of 4e creatures. All things equal no one is going to step in that square for the fun of it. But in the life and death of combat where every round is critical, not losing a turn or avoiding a bad tactical situation, outweighs the minor deterrence it provides.

I beg to differ for a minion.

In fact, if a minion does enter it and gets killed, the non-minion behind him should assume that it insta-death and avoid it.

The rule that creatures know how powers affect them only applies to powers currently affecting them. It does not apply to a power which is not currently affecting them.

Still the damage alone can be an argument over MM, but as a 'control' spell its pretty weak.

It's not just a control spell. It's the strongest single target At Will Wizard spell bar none. I am not saying that it is a super strong control spell. I am saying that it is the strongest damage At Will Single target spell which also has some minor control aspects. Not great (it is At Will after all), but not non-existent either.

Nice post and analysis!

Thanks. I spent a lot of time analyzing options when designing my Human Int 20 Wizard (who took Cloud of Daggers, Scorching Ray, and Thunderwave).

 

[Torchlyte]

1. And if you're an artful dodger, you may not care.

It's still a disadvantage.

2. This statement is a gross failure to see the benefits of the extra 2 movement. You can use Deft Strike, then a move after. You can use Deft Strike to avoid using a Run action when your base move is insufficient for any number of reasons. You can combine shift with deft strike to move 3 while not provoking in some circumstances, etc.

I see the benefits, but they are underwhelming.

3. You can throw a shuriken while using Deft Strike.

Why would you? The point is to take advantage of temporary combat advantage when you have just one action, but that can be done just as easily with a ranged basic attack.

This is just wrong. Even a basic 4th level character who deals 1d8 + 7 damage (4 stat, 2 enh, 1 feat, for instance) deals more damage from +2 hit than +2 damage. In addition, hitting and having _some_ effect is almost always better than missing more often but doing slightly more damage. Minions, almost dead critters, effects which trigger on hits, etc. It's definitely worth taking a penalty to hit for more damage (hence why Sure Strike is lackluster, just not enough bang for the buck) but +2 dmg < +2 hit barring extraordinary circumstances.

Yeah, I'm not sure what I was thinking here. Statistically, the attack vs damage point is always at 10...

When your average damage > 10; +1 attack > +1 damage
When your average damage > 10; +2 attack > +2 damage

...and so forth.

When your average damage > 11; +2 attack > (+1 atk, +1 dam)

zZz...

In fact, if a minion does enter it and gets killed, the non-minion behind him should assume that it insta-death and avoid it.

All attack powers are insta-death to a minion. A Wizard's basic dagger attack is insta-death to a minion. That doesn't mean the hobgoblin warlord is going to avoid engaging a Wizard in melee.

 

[Switchback]

I beg to differ for a minion.

In fact, if a minion does enter it and gets killed, the non-minion behind him should assume that it insta-death and avoid it.

The rule that creatures know how powers affect them only applies to powers currently affecting them. It does not apply to a power which is not currently affecting them.

I see you have a human so I can understand your choices. But with 2 picks its harder. CoD is good against minion's but if you at all have a chance to hit more than 1, I would prefer Scorching Burst or Thundewave. I have Scorching at the moment, so taking CoD to derail minions as well is harder to justify. And then I would be stuck with two vs Reflex at wills.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

On a non-human I -might- agree, but as a human this will always be one of my 3 at-wills. Fighters aren't there to damage, they're there to be sticky. With heavy blade opportunity, you get +2 (sure strike) + wis + probably a +2 from combat reflexes (or whatever that feat was called) to attack on OA's. These OA's aren't there to damage but to make sure that ugly brute stops moving past you to hit the squishies you're protecting.

Good point. When I first posted I thought that there might be a scenario where Sure Strike is a decent choice; for Careful Attack, this is never the case, since Twin Strike does everything Careful Attack can do, but better. There is no other Fighter at-will that gives an increased chance to hit, but there are very, very few scenarios where an improved chance to hit trumps a higher expected damage, and you've found one of them (maybe the only one?).

Having said that, this is very situational: applies only to OA provoked by movement, requires a paragon feat, and 15 Dex. Also (minor point), the victim of the OA can still use its standard action to keep moving. Bear in mind also that in all other circumstances, this at-will is inferior to all others (but you've conceded that point by saying you'd only consider it as the bonus at-will for a human Fighter). Nevertheless, it's a useful feat in this specific circumstance. I'll boost my recommendation from -1 to 0.

 

[Nifft]

My Human Wizard chose Magic Missile, Thunderwave and Scorching Burst.

Magic Missile - There was exactly one deciding factor: range. Scorching Burst is nice, but Magic Missile is better, because it means combat is happening very far away from me. It's proven very valuable (because my party lacks a Ranger); it could be less valuable in other parties.

Thunderwave - I have this for those very unfortunate occasions when combat is happening in my direct vicinity. It's not an overstatement to say it saved my life at 2nd level, when I was trying to lurk around a corner and suddenly a bunch of skeletons instantiated themselves all around me. I killed about eight skeletons -- half the attack force -- without taking too much damage.

Scorching Burst - This is my usual power, for when combat is happening between my most favorite range (ranged 20) and my least favorite range (close blast).

- - -

What I discarded, and why:

Cloud of Daggers - Excellent damage, but the control-area is just too small. If it did less damage but in a larger area, or had a longer range, I'd have taken it happily.

Ray of Frost - Poor target defense, and poor side-effect: Slow is not that great for a single-target who's already within 10 squares of me. At mid-range, I want to Push, Immobilize or inflict an attack penalty.

Illusory Ambush - Wasn't available. Is too good to pass up when combined with Psychic Lock, and Dark Fury is easily within my reach, so I'm considering what to trade for it at 11th level.

Cheers, -- N

 

[KarinsDad]

I see you have a human so I can understand your choices. But with 2 picks its harder. CoD is good against minion's but if you at all have a chance to hit more than 1, I would prefer Scorching Burst or Thundewave. I have Scorching at the moment, so taking CoD to derail minions as well is harder to justify. And then I would be stuck with two vs Reflex at wills.

Two picks is harder. One (more or less) has to be area effect and one has to be single target.

That does not invalidate that CoD is typically better than either Magic Missile or Ray of Frost as the single target one.

Having two Reflex save At Wills is not really that big of a deal considering that Wizards also get Per Encounter spells.

There are very few creatures in the Monster Manual where Reflex is way (i.e. 3 or more) better than Fort. There are about 30 some creatures (< 5%) with Reflex 3 or more higher than Fort. There are hundreds of creatures with Fort 3 or more higher than Reflex (and many of those are 5 or higher) and many hundreds more 1 or 2 higher.

So, a Wizard player is screwing himself big time taking Ray of Frost as his single target At Will power (especially considering that he cannot buff it with Lasting Frost until level 11).

Your justification for taking Cloud of Daggers (or Magic Missile for range) and Scorching Ray for your two picks is staring you in the face. Reflex is a lot better than Fort, regardless of the PHB suggesting that PCs try to get one of each type. That's what Per Encounter spells are for.

 

[Marshall]

Anyhow, lot of good stuff, I'll work back through and update the initial post shortly. I may switch to ranges since getting a consensus is not likely.

Why dont you switch to grades? Its a little more clear when you say a power is a "B" or a "D" than a 6,7,8 or 2,3,4.

A+,A,B,C,D and F is all you need.