In the event no one attacks the creature while it's dazed but it can charge another pc and manages to hit, what real benefit was daze?
You may want to note the disclaimer for these ratings:
"All powers are graded assuming they are used effectively - if a power requires a second person in melee to work, don't take it in a party with no other melee. In many cases you'll find that personal preference varies from these grades - while a power may be extraordinary in theory or combined with the right build or party, take the power that is most fun for you!"
Not true at all, if you take the perception that it only helps if it changes an outcome or prevents damage.
It always means the rogue doesn't need flank. It always means that people can ignore opportunity attacks from the target. It always means that sustaining powers is painful and that some other abilities are denied. It always synergizes with other effects like grab or prone. It always provides an increase in average via combat advantage. It always means the target has limited ability to select targets if the party chooses to take appropriate steps. Etc.
Ignoring the benefits of daze so that it doesn't have an effect is not effectively using it.
You seem to be undervaluing the ability of immobilize to prevent an attack and over valuing the ability of daze to do so.
Immobilize is quite effective at preventing some attacks from some targets.
change sometimes to most of the time. You pick the target of the power, you're not frequently going to dump an immobilize on the archer but you're very likely to drop it on the umberhulk.
And if you're not fighting any melee only creatures? If the Umber Hulk won initiative and is already adjacent to someone, so you need to double move to make it lose the ability to attack and it will _still_ be able to use its confusing gaze unless you're more than 5 squares away?
Immobilize is massively better at it. Only teleport escapes.
Or any type of forced movement... not common but I've seen a Deathlock Wight push an ally out of a zone, for instance.
Daze only helps if the terrain is difficult and the creature doesn't have enough points of movement to reach an edge.
Or if a fighter can OA to stop movement, or heavy blade opportunity can slow or push or slide the target.
But, as I noted, immobilize is better at keeping creatures in a zone. Certainly agree.
If you're adjacent to a creature that gets immobilized you can shift away and deny him his attack.
Only certain creatures, only if all allies shift - which makes it both initiative dependent and ally action dependent, and potentially limits your damage output (such as by negating flank for the rogue)
You're not going to attempt to immobilize a creature that is already adjacent to a pc and will act before that pc unless you have no better options.
Correct. Making it not useful in those cases... which makes immobilize less effective.
you kep trying to make highly situational and anecdotal arguments against immobilize without considering the inverse.
No, I am considering it. I'm giving it a different weight than you are. You seem to be assuming that you'll always have the right target selection and tactical situation. Immobilize is _fantastic_ in the first round of combat with the right enemies... with the wrong enemies less so, after the first round or if you lose initiative... even less.
Massively stilted level selection. Really anecdotal when compared to all 30 levels.
I was looking at level 15 powers, so I'd had that level of creatures up to look at for the Bloody Path example. I can certainly bring up more examples, but I hardly think that an entire level of creatures, every single one of them, is 'anecdotal' to the discussion. If immobilize becomes significantly less useful at epic, that is a an impact.
ridiculously uneven level to choose.
Eh, one I had up. I'll do another level later... but we are looking at level 15 powers, so it can only go so low
why is he dead if it's round one?
Because he's a minion and you just immobilized him. I sure hope you damaged him too
+Rot Slinger (Rot Harbinger) Level 22 Artillery - much better melee than ranged though both are good. CA probably is better than stopping this guy from reaching melee though it's closer than you think and I might call it a wash because ongoing 10 is a lot worse than weak.
Its ranged attack is as good as its melee... it's not only weaken, it's also vs Fort (more likely to hit), and -2 to saves which can be very helpful for maintaining other effects.
*Bluespawn Godslayer Level 22 Elite Brute - would you target this creature after he was engaged? If I do hit him with immobilize, he's not in combat. Daze also does not prevent him from attacking. Suppose the effect lasts 3 rounds. Immobilize has completely prevented him from engaging for 3 rounds where daze just forced him to charge and his speed is 8 so he can cover a lot of ground. Granted CA might have caused him to take more dmg but I'll take immobilize especially as I'll be choosing when I use my powers it will never be after he's in combat with our fighter.
Why would the effect last 3 rounds? It's got a save bonus, among other things. As noted, if you get initiative over it, in the first round of combat, you can immobilize it before it engages. If not, then it's likely already too late due to it having reach 3.
*Death Giant Level 22 Brute - same as above, advantage immobilize
Indeed, same as above, no advantage immobilize.
*Hezrou (Demon) Level 22 Brute - same as above advantage immobilize.
Ditto.
#Elder Red Dragon Level 22 Solo Soldier - reach 3, hover flight, ranged and melee attacks, immobilize makes flying creatures land, hover creatures do not need to spend a move action and thus remain aloft if dazed, this creature also has only one ranged attack out side of 5 and that has a recharge so immobilize could tie it up for several rounds and leave it powerless to act. I'll still give this to daze but immobilize could definitely impact this situationally.
Immobiize does not cause hover fliers to land... cool houserule though. (Ah, I see you realized this later on)
*Thunderhawk (Roc) Level 22 Elite Soldier - still affected better by immobilize than daze, it's primary attack is a charge and it has hover flight. Incidentally when I looked up this creature I looked at roc's (level 14) a regular roc is devastated by immobilize and only moderately affected by daze. It has a fly by attack so it will still function normally it just won't get the bit after it tosses you to the rocks. Meanwhile immobilize makes it crash, no attacks unless it happens to fall next to you. Just one example that shows a huge bonus to immobilize.
Hover flight still works, as you know. Immobilize is more effective on the level 14 Roc than daze under most situations, agreed.
I question this logic quite a bit beyond the fact you picked a level designed to shaft immobilize I think it works better on the minion and 4 of the other 10 while being pretty close to even on 1 more.
I didn't pick a level to shaft immobilize - I picked a median level for the powers we're looking at pretty randomly
It doesn't matter to the minion at all and I'd show it as more effective than daze on one of the targets, about even on two of the targets, a solid effect on two more, a minor effect on one, and largely ineffective on the remaining four.
Oops, missed that. I totally get it now, thanks. Surges are still valuable but the healing is still better for stand. Really poorly designed change from 6th to 16th. I still think this is a good power (possibly 300 hp's with no surge) but it's annoying to see the weakness when compared to stand. One note on line of site. I agree with you on line of sight/blinded. It totally makes sense and I would probably play it that way as well, but RAW fanatics might say LOS and actually seeing aren't the same. I would agree that range ten will mostly always get all allies but I would also say that line of sight is more likely to benefit you than hurt you in this regard. I've seen a lot more encounters where my pc's are more than 10 squares apart than I have where they couldn't find a line of sight to each other.
Yeah, I just figure that it's easy enough to all be in 10 on purpose, but it's hard for someone to get unblinded or not be in a zone of darkness sometimes. I'd totally take controllable disadvantage over uncontrollable disadvantage, so I figure they cancel out
Yes we try to avoid encounter when the fighter or rogue is down to less than 3. I agree stand is better most of the time but the non surge healing might mean we saved a surge in an earlier encounter and thus have an extra one each remaining so renew is better in that instance.
When it gets down to it, I'm still marking Renew the Troops as a better power by the grade that I gave it... I just think it's a lot less impressive than others might. It doesn't affect the user, but puts him potentially in danger, while still assuming the rest of the party is hurt enough to need it, it requires a hit for optimal use by someone often less optimal at hitting, it's roughly comparable to existing powers - a level 10 utility or level 5 daily. Certainly enough marks to drop it out of high grade, on my book.
