Grading Daily Powers
- Thread starter keterys
- Start date
I remember this thread and I think the discussion of the daily powers is too much fun to let die. I'll take a stab at the level 15 powers and Keterys can come in with a more detailed analysis later.
*Cleric*
B+ / Holy Spark
B / Purifying Fire
B- / Seal of Warding
Holy Spark is a rare STR vs. Will that has the weapon keyword. There is no other cleric melee power that has this property and this makes it quite accurate. The damage isn't too bad either, if you assume that there will usually be at least 1 NPC within 3 squares.
Purifying Fireis yet another effective cleric ranged AoE. The fact that it doesn't target allies makes it safe to drop on your defender. The problem is that the healing side effect is dependent on the turn order so if the NPC goes first and saves against the ongoing damage then your allies lose out on the healing.
Seal of Warding gets slightly downranked because I'm of the opinion that Close burst powers are harder to use as effectively as ranged burst powers for a wisdom based cleric. The zone effect is nice but at level 15 you will want all your actions and shouldn't tie up for minor action for such as small effect.
*Fighter*
Dragon's Fangs / C+
Serpent Dance Strike / B -
Unyielding Avalanche / A
Dragon's Fangs is almost exactly like a double brute strike. The damage is good but that's all there is there. At level 15, monsters have a TON of hps and I feel a daily attack should do something besides chip away at their HPs. On the other hand, it does do a lot of damage so I could see bumping this power up to B in some situtaions.
Sepent Dance Strike is another one of the shift and attack powers capping out at 4 targets. This power is unlikely to be able to be used to maximum effect in every battle but since it's a daily you can wait and save it for when it is most effective.
Unyielding Avalanche is the best stance power the fighter has so far. Regeneration, an AC bonus and best of all, an auto hit attack against everyone next to you that slows makes this stance very very good.
*Paladin*
Bloodied Retribution / C -
Break the Wall / C +
True Nemesis / B +
Bloodied Retribution only works while bloodied and from what I've seen from our paladin, he doesn't spend that much time bloodied. This power also doesn't do a significient amount of damage to make up for its situtational use.
Break the Wall is at least useful for setting up other PC's powers but on the whole, there's nothing too special about this power which even targets a defence that is usually as high as AC.
True Nemesis is better than it looks at first glance. Notice that the secondary effect lasts the whole encounter and triggers even on a miss. The reaction attack also does damage on a miss so if the paladin can stay within 5 squares of his target, he's certain to do at least 1d10 + CHA/2 damage per round.
*Ranger*
Blade Cascade / A+
Bleeding Wounds / D
Confounding Arrows / B-
Blade Cascade. Do you even have to ask? Even in the errata'd version does more damage than pretty much any other ranger power. It does require some setup but nothing a ranger shouldn't be doing anyway.
Bleeding Wounds. Lackluster damage considering that 5 ongoing isn't very much around level 15. Level 9 Dailies do more damage.
Confounding Arrows is a stunning power which is very powerful. Stun is 2nd most useful status effect to inflict and can be quite effective on a dangerous NPC.
*Rogue*
Bloody Path / B
Garrote Grip / A+
Slaying Strike / C+
Bloody Path is one of the more amusing powers in the game and I'm tempted to rate it higher just for that reason alone. One thing to note is that many creatures do not have a basic melee attack but instead use their more powerful at will strike. You can get creatures to inflict status effects on themselves if you are facing the right opponents.
Garrote Grip's power depends on if you can relyable substain the grab. Most monsters don't have an acrobatics or althetics score listed so I assume that they'll be reduced to making STR vs fort tests to escape. I think this means you shouldn't have many difficulties holding the grab for 3 rounds.
Slaying Strike is not truely a bad power but it does rely on getting a foe to bloodied. From what I've seen in our games, the strikers generally wanted to unload their dailies as quickly as possible and I don't think they would have liked to wait until their dangerous target was bloodied.
I really don't know the warlock really enough to comment on their powers. No one in my group plays one and I've never really had any interest in them. Tendrils of Thuban looks like a nifty power but the other appear substandard.
I think I'll also leave off the Warlord and Wizard for now. Their powers are slightly harder to evaluate and I've not seen the wizard in action before.
*Cleric*
B+ / Holy Spark
B / Purifying Fire
B- / Seal of Warding
Holy Spark is a rare STR vs. Will that has the weapon keyword. There is no other cleric melee power that has this property and this makes it quite accurate. The damage isn't too bad either, if you assume that there will usually be at least 1 NPC within 3 squares.
Purifying Fireis yet another effective cleric ranged AoE. The fact that it doesn't target allies makes it safe to drop on your defender. The problem is that the healing side effect is dependent on the turn order so if the NPC goes first and saves against the ongoing damage then your allies lose out on the healing.
Seal of Warding gets slightly downranked because I'm of the opinion that Close burst powers are harder to use as effectively as ranged burst powers for a wisdom based cleric. The zone effect is nice but at level 15 you will want all your actions and shouldn't tie up for minor action for such as small effect.
*Fighter*
Dragon's Fangs / C+
Serpent Dance Strike / B -
Unyielding Avalanche / A
Dragon's Fangs is almost exactly like a double brute strike. The damage is good but that's all there is there. At level 15, monsters have a TON of hps and I feel a daily attack should do something besides chip away at their HPs. On the other hand, it does do a lot of damage so I could see bumping this power up to B in some situtaions.
Sepent Dance Strike is another one of the shift and attack powers capping out at 4 targets. This power is unlikely to be able to be used to maximum effect in every battle but since it's a daily you can wait and save it for when it is most effective.
Unyielding Avalanche is the best stance power the fighter has so far. Regeneration, an AC bonus and best of all, an auto hit attack against everyone next to you that slows makes this stance very very good.
*Paladin*
Bloodied Retribution / C -
Break the Wall / C +
True Nemesis / B +
Bloodied Retribution only works while bloodied and from what I've seen from our paladin, he doesn't spend that much time bloodied. This power also doesn't do a significient amount of damage to make up for its situtational use.
Break the Wall is at least useful for setting up other PC's powers but on the whole, there's nothing too special about this power which even targets a defence that is usually as high as AC.
True Nemesis is better than it looks at first glance. Notice that the secondary effect lasts the whole encounter and triggers even on a miss. The reaction attack also does damage on a miss so if the paladin can stay within 5 squares of his target, he's certain to do at least 1d10 + CHA/2 damage per round.
*Ranger*
Blade Cascade / A+
Bleeding Wounds / D
Confounding Arrows / B-
Blade Cascade. Do you even have to ask? Even in the errata'd version does more damage than pretty much any other ranger power. It does require some setup but nothing a ranger shouldn't be doing anyway.
Bleeding Wounds. Lackluster damage considering that 5 ongoing isn't very much around level 15. Level 9 Dailies do more damage.
Confounding Arrows is a stunning power which is very powerful. Stun is 2nd most useful status effect to inflict and can be quite effective on a dangerous NPC.
*Rogue*
Bloody Path / B
Garrote Grip / A+
Slaying Strike / C+
Bloody Path is one of the more amusing powers in the game and I'm tempted to rate it higher just for that reason alone. One thing to note is that many creatures do not have a basic melee attack but instead use their more powerful at will strike. You can get creatures to inflict status effects on themselves if you are facing the right opponents.
Garrote Grip's power depends on if you can relyable substain the grab. Most monsters don't have an acrobatics or althetics score listed so I assume that they'll be reduced to making STR vs fort tests to escape. I think this means you shouldn't have many difficulties holding the grab for 3 rounds.
Slaying Strike is not truely a bad power but it does rely on getting a foe to bloodied. From what I've seen in our games, the strikers generally wanted to unload their dailies as quickly as possible and I don't think they would have liked to wait until their dangerous target was bloodied.
I really don't know the warlock really enough to comment on their powers. No one in my group plays one and I've never really had any interest in them. Tendrils of Thuban looks like a nifty power but the other appear substandard.
I think I'll also leave off the Warlord and Wizard for now. Their powers are slightly harder to evaluate and I've not seen the wizard in action before.
Ok, I have some more time so here goes the warlock, warlord, and wizard analysis.
*Warlock*
Curse of the Golden Mist / D
Fireswarm / C-
Tendrils of Thuban / B-
Thirsting Maw / C
Curse of the Golden Mist is simply a waste. You are using one of your precious dailies, not to do damage, but simply to trade your actions for the targets. This is most useful on solos, the very monsters where you are most likely to miss with this power. If you don't believe me, imagine that this power was "Hit: Target is stunned (save ends)" That is weak for a level 15 daily but better than this power.
Fireswarm is another sustain standard power which becomes worse the more powers you have and better options for your standard action become available. The damage is good but NPCs can easily avoid the splash damage on the later turns.
Tendrils of Thuban is only halfway decent because how difficult it is to get out of the zone once the NPC is stuck in it. Since the NPC saves at the end of its turn, it leaves itself open for being immobilized again by the power's continued effect.
Thirsting Maw does low damage coinciding it is a level 15 daily. There might be some use for it considering the new warlock feats that let you deal damage to yourself in exchange for benefits but I don't know those feats well enough to comment.
*Warlord*
Make Them Bleed / B (D if the ongoing damage doesn't stack)
Renew the Troops / B+
Warlord's Gambit / C
Make Them Bleed adds 5 ongoing untyped damage which I don't know if it stacks or not. I know ongoing damage from the same source does not stack, if a monster hits you for 5 ongoing fire damage and then hits you again the damage does not become 10 ongoing. I'm not sure if that applies to this power or not. Anyone have a good grasp on the ongoing damage rules?
Renew the Troops heals without using a healing surge which is quite handy in a pinch. You're rarely going to be able to use this to heal everyone because damage is usually concentrated on 1-2 PCs but every bit helps.
Warlord's Gambit has the nasty problem of giving your opponent choices. If it's beneficial to hit you, the NPC is going to enjoy the attack bonuses and if its not then the effect is wasted. The penalty of having an ally make a basic attack against it is not that prohibitive as its roughly the same as a fighter's mark which monsters ignore if the benefits are high enough.
*Wizard*
This is the level that wizards start to really play with the good spells. Up to now, their dailies have been not that interesting but from now on wizards get spells that really control the battlefield.
Bigby's Grasping Hands / B-
Blast of Cold / C
Otilukes Resilient Sphere / B
Prismatic Beams / B+
Wall of Ice / A
Bigby's Grasping Hands deserves extra points just for its humorous nature. Sadly the fact that it needs a minor action to sustain means that it competes with other cool wizard powers.
Blast of Cold. Remember buring hands, thunderwave, color spray, thunderlance? If you do, then you already know Blast of Cold, the latest and not the greatest in the series of close blast powers that do damage and a minor status effect.
Otilukes Resilient Sphere is excellent for isolating a dangerous foe for several rounds while the rest of the party cleans of the rest of the NPCs. The only problem is that you need to hit on that attack roll as the miss effect is nothing to write home about.
Prismatic Beams is amazing if you roll high. If all three beams hit which will happen more often the only some of them hitting, the target takes 4d6 + 2 INT, 10 ongoing and is dazed. Dazed is one of the nasty status effects to inflict and it is keyed off the lowest defense.
Wall of Ice is what you have all been waiting for. A wall 12 can completely surround two adjacent squares. It does 4d6 to each creature attempting to break the wall down and doesn't even require an attack roll. Aside from blade cascade, I'd say this is the most powerful level 15 daily.
Ok, that's it for the level 15 dailies. Now for the fun part where you the reader tell me where I'm wrong. It's pretty unlikely that I've managed to get everything rated accurately so don't be shy and tell me which powers I've underrated and which ones aren't quite as nifty as I thought they were.
*Warlock*
Curse of the Golden Mist / D
Fireswarm / C-
Tendrils of Thuban / B-
Thirsting Maw / C
Curse of the Golden Mist is simply a waste. You are using one of your precious dailies, not to do damage, but simply to trade your actions for the targets. This is most useful on solos, the very monsters where you are most likely to miss with this power. If you don't believe me, imagine that this power was "Hit: Target is stunned (save ends)" That is weak for a level 15 daily but better than this power.
Fireswarm is another sustain standard power which becomes worse the more powers you have and better options for your standard action become available. The damage is good but NPCs can easily avoid the splash damage on the later turns.
Tendrils of Thuban is only halfway decent because how difficult it is to get out of the zone once the NPC is stuck in it. Since the NPC saves at the end of its turn, it leaves itself open for being immobilized again by the power's continued effect.
Thirsting Maw does low damage coinciding it is a level 15 daily. There might be some use for it considering the new warlock feats that let you deal damage to yourself in exchange for benefits but I don't know those feats well enough to comment.
*Warlord*
Make Them Bleed / B (D if the ongoing damage doesn't stack)
Renew the Troops / B+
Warlord's Gambit / C
Make Them Bleed adds 5 ongoing untyped damage which I don't know if it stacks or not. I know ongoing damage from the same source does not stack, if a monster hits you for 5 ongoing fire damage and then hits you again the damage does not become 10 ongoing. I'm not sure if that applies to this power or not. Anyone have a good grasp on the ongoing damage rules?
Renew the Troops heals without using a healing surge which is quite handy in a pinch. You're rarely going to be able to use this to heal everyone because damage is usually concentrated on 1-2 PCs but every bit helps.
Warlord's Gambit has the nasty problem of giving your opponent choices. If it's beneficial to hit you, the NPC is going to enjoy the attack bonuses and if its not then the effect is wasted. The penalty of having an ally make a basic attack against it is not that prohibitive as its roughly the same as a fighter's mark which monsters ignore if the benefits are high enough.
*Wizard*
This is the level that wizards start to really play with the good spells. Up to now, their dailies have been not that interesting but from now on wizards get spells that really control the battlefield.
Bigby's Grasping Hands / B-
Blast of Cold / C
Otilukes Resilient Sphere / B
Prismatic Beams / B+
Wall of Ice / A
Bigby's Grasping Hands deserves extra points just for its humorous nature. Sadly the fact that it needs a minor action to sustain means that it competes with other cool wizard powers.
Blast of Cold. Remember buring hands, thunderwave, color spray, thunderlance? If you do, then you already know Blast of Cold, the latest and not the greatest in the series of close blast powers that do damage and a minor status effect.
Otilukes Resilient Sphere is excellent for isolating a dangerous foe for several rounds while the rest of the party cleans of the rest of the NPCs. The only problem is that you need to hit on that attack roll as the miss effect is nothing to write home about.
Prismatic Beams is amazing if you roll high. If all three beams hit which will happen more often the only some of them hitting, the target takes 4d6 + 2 INT, 10 ongoing and is dazed. Dazed is one of the nasty status effects to inflict and it is keyed off the lowest defense.
Wall of Ice is what you have all been waiting for. A wall 12 can completely surround two adjacent squares. It does 4d6 to each creature attempting to break the wall down and doesn't even require an attack roll. Aside from blade cascade, I'd say this is the most powerful level 15 daily.
Ok, that's it for the level 15 dailies. Now for the fun part where you the reader tell me where I'm wrong. It's pretty unlikely that I've managed to get everything rated accurately so don't be shy and tell me which powers I've underrated and which ones aren't quite as nifty as I thought they were.
keterys
First Post
Very cool, thanks. I'd started to poke at them a little today but this should save me time.
Fwiw, you're probably overvaluing Blade Cascade... for example, its expected damage output is actually not that far above Bleeding Wounds, which you ranked as a D
Ongoing 5 is roughly equivalent to 1W in damage, and it does half on miss, so 3 attacks at 2W almost half on miss, at ranged, or 1 to 5 melee attacks at 2W, nothing on miss and ending string on miss... even if you get up to 90% hit it's just not as amazing as you'd think.
Fwiw, you're probably overvaluing Blade Cascade... for example, its expected damage output is actually not that far above Bleeding Wounds, which you ranked as a D
Ongoing 5 is roughly equivalent to 1W in damage, and it does half on miss, so 3 attacks at 2W almost half on miss, at ranged, or 1 to 5 melee attacks at 2W, nothing on miss and ending string on miss... even if you get up to 90% hit it's just not as amazing as you'd think.
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mlangsdorf
First Post
I'd say you're underestimating Confounding Arrows: it's really an A+ power. It inflicts a Daze effect on up to 3 enemies even if all shots miss. That's very potent!
Blade Cascade, on the other hand, does a maximum of 10W+5Static, so maybe 150 points of damage if all 5 attacks hit. That's impressive, but there's plenty of foes who aren't going to be stopped by that. If 2 of the 3 hits from Confounding Arrows hit, the foe is stopped.
My point is, at the top end, Blade Cascade is 10W+5Static, and Confounding Arrows is 5W+3Static and Stunned (Save ends). Do you really think 5W+2Static damage - likely not much more than 90-100 points if all the dice come up maximum - is equivalent to Stunned (Save Ends)?
Blade Cascade, on the other hand, does a maximum of 10W+5Static, so maybe 150 points of damage if all 5 attacks hit. That's impressive, but there's plenty of foes who aren't going to be stopped by that. If 2 of the 3 hits from Confounding Arrows hit, the foe is stopped.
My point is, at the top end, Blade Cascade is 10W+5Static, and Confounding Arrows is 5W+3Static and Stunned (Save ends). Do you really think 5W+2Static damage - likely not much more than 90-100 points if all the dice come up maximum - is equivalent to Stunned (Save Ends)?
keterys
First Post
100 points vs stunned (save ends)? At a certain point, you do have to concede that dead (no save) is a really good condition
A lot of it will start to depend on the game's saturation of solos and elites - I have one character who in 20 game sessions has fought one solo. For him, certain powers are quite a lot less useful...
A lot of it will start to depend on the game's saturation of solos and elites - I have one character who in 20 game sessions has fought one solo. For him, certain powers are quite a lot less useful...
Hmm, I think you're right about Confounding Arrows. I usually rate stun powers higher than B- so I'm not quite sure why I gave it the low rating. One thing I think that prevents it from being an A level power is that you have to decide how many shots to allocate to each target before you see if they hit. Optimally, you'd want to have 2 hit and then the third directed at a secondary target but you have no guarantee that you'll hit with the first two which forces you to allocate all 3 shots at the target you want stunned. Still, I'd say it's a B+ on a secondary look.
As for Blade Cascade, I believe it's still the most damaging daily even after the errta. I'll run the math when I have time but I think with good preperation (getting CA and other party members to apply penalties to AC) it does enough damage to kill or get close to kill a normal level 15 target and, as Keterys has put it, dead is the ultimate status effect.
As for Blade Cascade, I believe it's still the most damaging daily even after the errta. I'll run the math when I have time but I think with good preperation (getting CA and other party members to apply penalties to AC) it does enough damage to kill or get close to kill a normal level 15 target and, as Keterys has put it, dead is the ultimate status effect.
keterys
First Post
Out of curiosity I did a quick and dirty spreadsheet for Blade Cascade vs. Bleeding Wounds...
If static damage is around +20,
Blade Cascade vs. Bleeding Wounds (positive is BC more damage, negative is BW more damage)
When roll needed:
2: +47.2
3: +29.5
4: +14.4
5: +1.7
6: -8.8
7: -17.6
8: -24.7
9: -30.4
etc to -42.9 when a 19 is needed
That's a very notable difference in usability, and BW is more versatile in terms of range and target selection. Fwiw, the static bonus mostly just expands the difference from there. If you're +50 at epic, it's +88.4, +54.5, +25.7, +1.4, -18.9, -35.8...
Rerolls to flush some of the misses from blade cascade certainly help, but it's not anywhere near as crazy as it was when unbound.
If static damage is around +20,
Blade Cascade vs. Bleeding Wounds (positive is BC more damage, negative is BW more damage)
When roll needed:
2: +47.2
3: +29.5
4: +14.4
5: +1.7
6: -8.8
7: -17.6
8: -24.7
9: -30.4
etc to -42.9 when a 19 is needed
That's a very notable difference in usability, and BW is more versatile in terms of range and target selection. Fwiw, the static bonus mostly just expands the difference from there. If you're +50 at epic, it's +88.4, +54.5, +25.7, +1.4, -18.9, -35.8...
Rerolls to flush some of the misses from blade cascade certainly help, but it's not anywhere near as crazy as it was when unbound.
