granting spells to Divine and Wild adepts

[GlassJaw]

I started a thread in the General board about low-magic casting systems but then I reread the magic section in Grim Tales and I realized exactly what I was looking for.

Wulf (or anyone else), I'm looking for some "elaboration" on the Divine Adept and Wild Adept sections in the Spells & Magic section on pg. 128, spefically the line:

"...are often granted their spells at the whim of the GM, completely out of their control."

The campaign I'm planning is going to be for some players that don't have much experience in low-magic campaigns (I don't really either) and I'm hoping to avoid this kind of ambiguity, at least somewhat.

For Arcane Adepts, it's easy. All I need to do to have them find tomes and books that have spells when I want them to. For divine and wild adepts, it's not so cut and dry.

I would like to create some kind of system that allows the player who wants to be a divine or wild adept to at least know he has some control over getting a new spell every once in a while.

Wild adepts in my campaign will basically be sorcs although their magic will bend more towards enchantments and perhaps healing. Divine adepts will be similar to shaman or druids; their magic based on nature and the elements. They are mostly found in the various tribes scattered across the land.

The ideas I had to grant spells were talent trees, paying XP's, or simply taking levels in the appropriate class for the ability of the magic tradition.

 

[Serps]

You know, in a low magic campaign, you don't have to stick to the rule that non-arcane spellcasters know all spells of their level.

 

[GlassJaw]

Oh, I'm definitely not. They'll have to learn them one at a time. I just want some kind of system, however simple, that at least gives the players the ability to learn new spells at some point.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

GlassJaw, first off, I appreciate all your interest in Grim Tales.

Now on to your problem...

The problem, as I see it, is that you are still locked in a D&D mentality. Players don't decide, "I want to be a Magical Adept!"

Remember, it's a talent, not a class. And it's an advanced talent, at that-- which means 3rd level or higher.

You seem to think that you are obligated to let the players choose this talent, and then you have to cater to that desire. That's backwards!

What you should be doing is providing a source of spells-- completely at your whim, when you are ready and only those spells you are comfortable with having in your campaign.

Remember, anybody can learn spells. Perhaps you drop a dusty tome in the path of the party. Perhaps a demonic or shamanic spirit appears to the players and offers one or even allof them knowledge of a potent spell-- perhaps in exchange for some task performed or some promise thereof.

Once the players have a SOURCE of spell knowledge, and once they have LEARNED a spell, then they can CAST a spell. Moving on from there, some of those players are quite naturally going to want to pursue further power by taking the Magical Adept talent to gain some control over this dangerous new knowledge.

Divine and Wild Adepts are really no more at the whim of the GM than are Arcane Adepts, it's just that the source of their spell knowledge is less overt than a dusty tome and requires more creativity.

Wulf

 

[GlassJaw]

GlassJaw, first off, I appreciate all your interest in Grim Tales.

(now please stop asking me all these stupid questions!)

What you should be doing is providing a source of spells-- completely at your whim, when you are ready and only those spells you are comfortable with having in your campaign.

Remember, anybody can learn spells. Perhaps you drop a dusty tome in the path of the party. Perhaps a demonic or shamanic spirit appears to the players and offers one or even allof them knowledge of a potent spell-- perhaps in exchange for some task performed or some promise thereof.

*click* (Lightbulb goes on)

Great explanation. Now I think I see the philosophy of the low-magic campaign. I'm just a little unsure how a group not used to a low-magic setting will respond to it. I was telling them a little about my campaign idea and I was getting questions about whether there would be caster classes or if they could eventually use magic if they chose to. I wasn't exactly sure how to respond.

 

[Fenris]

What you should be doing is providing a source of spells-- completely at your whim, when you are ready and only those spells you are comfortable with having in your campaign.

Remember, anybody can learn spells. Perhaps you drop a dusty tome in the path of the party. Perhaps a demonic or shamanic spirit appears to the players and offers one or even allof them knowledge of a potent spell-- perhaps in exchange for some task performed or some promise thereof.

Once the players have a SOURCE of spell knowledge, and once they have LEARNED a spell, then they can CAST a spell. Moving on from there, some of those players are quite naturally going to want to pursue further power by taking the Magical Adept talent to gain some control over this dangerous new knowledge.

Divine and Wild Adepts are really no more at the whim of the GM than are Arcane Adepts, it's just that the source of their spell knowledge is less overt than a dusty tome and requires more creativity.

Wulf

Ok Wulf, I'll bite. Now I understand what you have said above. What I would like to see (in the classic GT theme of skulls, 1 to 3) is the RELATIVE spell levels that ought to be out there. Now yes I understand the "whim" of the DM etc and world specific blah blah blah. Got that. But an adept that has one spell may be fine for one game (lot o' talents for one spell) but where at the other end is a good mark. Obviously, having bought GT, I am interested in a low magic setting. But low-magic as we have seen is very subjective. I don't want the exponential spell power curve of core. And giving a too powerful spell is fun and gives a goal. But in a day to day situation, where should GT casters be? Now my whim places the spells in the PC's path, and I plan on it being a punctated equilibria of spell aquisition rather than a steady progression. But if I start a higher level campaign and I allow the characters to have "already" dicoverd some magic (or trained or what ever) what target should I shoot for (OK big target, a range-a spread) for spells.
one skull half class level (10th level hero has a 2nd and a few firsts)
two skulls class level (ie a 10th level hero has a 3rd, two 2nd and a few 1sts)

I am just looking for (and I think GlassJaw is as well) is a yardstick (sliding that it maybe) by which to start to decide how much magic to have, and I think to give the player a very general idea of the level of magic. Know in advance may save some kvetching later.
Thanks

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ok Wulf, I'll bite.

So they say!

I am just looking for (and I think GlassJaw is as well) is a yardstick (sliding that it maybe) by which to start to decide how much magic to have, and I think to give the player a very general idea of the level of magic. Know in advance may save some kvetching later.

There's no yardstick-- there's certainly not just "three skulls" to apply here.

But I understand the need to tell players up front what to expect. Here's what I would do before starting a "low magic" campaign with players who are used to D&D.

I'm going to address a lot of issues.

1) Healing. Let them know how their characters heal. Be very explicit-- don't just point them to the Heal skill and the rate of magical healing. Make sure you mention that Action Points can be used to heal after a fight.

2) Action Points. Explain the importance of Action Points. THEY ARE VITAL. Their defensive uses include bumping your AC, making your Massive Damage saving throws, and healing after a fight. For the first few sessions, remind the players at each of these opportunities to spend an action point until they get used to using them.

3) Explain how monsters critical hit. Remember, YOU as the GM don't have to confirm a critical threat (by awarding an action point) if you don't want to. You have a lot more control over "accidental" character deaths.

4) Undead. Let the players know if undead exist. If the undead exist, then holy symbols (which strike DR as /holy) and holy water should not be difficult to find and should not be considered "magic."

5) Magic-Using Creatures. Let the players know of any magical creatures that are rumored to exist. Decide up front if you want to use Weaknesses (I recommend it) and what weaknesses the players may be aware of. If they're hunting werewolves, they should know to bring silver. If they're hunting the Blood Demon of Varguul, they should know to bring white roses... etc. (Finding a monster's weakness is an adventure in itself.)

The quickest and easiest weakness to implement is to strip such monsters of their spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary abilities (including DR) in the presence of their weakness source. (See the end of Chapter 13).

Now on to spells. I hate to do it, but I'll give you a three-skull yardstick. Let's right away toss out two ends of that yardstick: the high-magic end of D&D, and the zero magic end. We're going to narrow down our yardstick to something in between.

*** (very low magic) The PCs may discover one or two spells total through the campaign. (But they are more likely to be devastating spells.) This is the Call of Cthulhu model.

** The PCs may discover 6-10 spells throughout the campaign; most of them will be minor, low-level, informational spells, with a couple of higher-level whizz-bangs. This is my favorite. Adding a new spell to your repertoire every 2nd level or so is a major accomplishment. For the most part, the repertoire of spells is chosen by the GM because of how they can be used to advance his campaign. Regardless, finding a new spell isn't guaranteed and the GM can use a new spell as a major item of "treasure."

* (high-magic, for a low magic campaign) Magic is rare, but known and controlled by certain groups in the campaign. Magical Adepts have some reliable source of "player's choice" spell gain: Arcane Adepts have academies and (with time and money) may learn one new spell each time they gain a caster level (most likely within a specialty school). Divine Adepts choose a domain and (through ritual initiations/heirarchies) may learn one spell from their domain list each time they gain a caster level. In this model, the structured approach to the existence of magic is innappropriate for wild adepts. If you want to be a wild adept in this model, you are still at the whims of the GM.

To me, that last * is still too high magic, but it seems to be the most likely thing you or your players will be gunning for.

Personally, I don't think any player should enter a low magic game with the expectation of "I'm going to be the wizard!" If you've already lost that battle, you've lost the low-magic war. Expectations will be set higher than you should be delivering in a low-magic game, and I would expect things to break down quickly.

EDIT: One last thing. The thing I don't like about the * option is this: the player gains a caster level and expects a new spell. Again, that's backwards. You should give the players a spell or two first. But the PCs should not have ANY impetus to improve their caster level until such time as they feel they know enough spells to make it worth spending that talent.

Wulf

 

[Serps]

Oh, and remember, you are free to give out 0-level spells instead of power-spells! Believe me, spells like Mage Hand become a lot more useful when you're forced to use them creatively.

 

[Fenris]

Now on to spells. I hate to do it, but I'll give you a three-skull yardstick. Let's right away toss out two ends of that yardstick: the high-magic end of D&D, and the zero magic end. We're going to narrow down our yardstick to something in between.

*** (very low magic) The PCs may discover one or two spells total through the campaign. (But they are more likely to be devastating spells.) This is the Call of Cthulhu model.

** The PCs may discover 6-10 spells throughout the campaign; most of them will be minor, low-level, informational spells, with a couple of higher-level whizz-bangs. This is my favorite. Adding a new spell to your repertoire every 2nd level or so is a major accomplishment. For the most part, the repertoire of spells is chosen by the GM because of how they can be used to advance his campaign. Regardless, finding a new spell isn't guaranteed and the GM can use a new spell as a major item of "treasure."

* (high-magic, for a low magic campaign) Magic is rare, but known and controlled by certain groups in the campaign. Magical Adepts have some reliable source of "player's choice" spell gain: Arcane Adepts have academies and (with time and money) may learn one new spell each time they gain a caster level (most likely within a specialty school). Divine Adepts choose a domain and (through ritual initiations/heirarchies) may learn one spell from their domain list each time they gain a caster level. In this model, the structured approach to the existence of magic is innappropriate for wild adepts. If you want to be a wild adept in this model, you are still at the whims of the GM.

To me, that last * is still too high magic, but it seems to be the most likely thing you or your players will be gunning for.

Personally, I don't think any player should enter a low magic game with the expectation of "I'm going to be the wizard!" If you've already lost that battle, you've lost the low-magic war. Expectations will be set higher than you should be delivering in a low-magic game, and I would expect things to break down quickly.

EDIT: One last thing. The thing I don't like about the * option is this: the player gains a caster level and expects a new spell. Again, that's backwards. You should give the players a spell or two first. But the PCs should not have ANY impetus to improve their caster level until such time as they feel they know enough spells to make it worth spending that talent.

Wulf

Wulf, a thousand thank you's. Both for the guidelines but also for the caveats and concerns. This will give me, as the DM an idea about the pace at which I supply spells. Your points are excellent and I must keep them in mind. After re-reading GT I think that arcane adepts are the hardest to supply. Divine relies upon an institution to pass on rituals, and wild adepts are very random. But this way when the spell book drops into their lap, I have an idea of what it ought to contain. So while it may have killed you to do so, thanks. Having at least soemthing to hang one's hat on in this is important as knowing where your mind set was in writing up GT helps me place everything else. I think I will fall at 2.2 skulls (slightly above 2-but that is my target to work for

And as a general nod Wulf, Thanks for being here to answer all these questions. Grim Tales is very exciting and made even more so by your wilingness to be available to help people enjoyed it further. Thanks.

Fenris