D&D 5E Grapple in 5e

[MostlyDm]

I'm not so interested in Hemlock's point from a RAW perspective... For whatever it's worth I think he's probably right by RAW, but I also would point out that in general 5e is written in natural language to discourage overly nitpicky readings of RAW. As far as I'm concerned, RAI *is*RAW in 5e. And my table rules trump both 100% of the time; I don't even hesitate.

That said, I actually think the grappling under sanctuary is kind of brilliant for essentially the opposite reason.

Usually sanctuary is all about subverting the intent of the magic (harm no one, and none shall harm ye) by following the letter of the law (no direct attacks.) So classic sanctuary tactics have always involved things like laying down oil for someone to light, or activating a lever to a trap, or whatever you can get away with. I think people are seeing the grapple thing in this light and calling shenanigans.

But looked at in the light of the spell itself, the internal consistency of the magic, and the root of the spell's name... The spell is intended to allow priests to remain above a conflict. They can minister the wounded without fear of reprisal, perhaps try to plea for an end to the conflict on both sides, etc.

Sanctuary is the Pacifist's core defensive spell. And in that light, I actually kind of love the idea of allowing grappling. You protect yourself with a sanctuary and then you simply wrestle your enemy to the ground and hold him there until he listens to reason. No need for anyone to die, my child, there is always another way.

Obviously grappling the guy and letting your three buddies skewer him would be very counter to the intent here.

So. What's my point? I'm not totally sure. I'd probably allow sanctuary Hemlock's way if I was also invoking stricter "harm none" requirements out of the spell. As is, I could go either way... In theory dedicated grapplers seem very devastating but I've never seen one in action at the table, so I don't have strong feelings about it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

In theory dedicated grapplers seem very devastating but I've never seen one in action at the table, so I don't have strong feelings about it.

By "dedicated" do you mean "dedicated to that task during this combat," or "dedicated to that tactic for my whole life long"? In general 5E isn't a good edition for uberspecialists, since Bounded Accuracy ensures diminishing returns. (E.g. Stealth +28 and Stealth +17 play out almost identically in practice.)

Observations:

Grappling in particular isn't a great thing to specialize in because it's actually a counter to other tactics, and it's not very useful if the thing you're countering isn't in play in the first place. Specifically, where I've seen Grapple shine is when somebody (e.g. Chuuls on a failed morale check) decides that he's going to ignore opportunity attacks and just charge the softest targets he sees. At that point the deterrence factor of opportunity attacks, and role playing considerations, fly out the window and you need somebody to physically restrain the attacker from bursting through your line. This can be done by simply standing in the right place, if size disparity isn't too big, but if DMG Overrun/Evade rules are in use there's always the chance the bad guy will simply run you over or otherwise get past you. (Yet another thing that Sanctuary wouldn't affect either way, BTW.) In this case, Grappling is essential to get the combat back under control. It's also useful for preventing enemies from running away, preventing them from Dodging, and of course preventing them from arising once you've knocked them prone.

The overall effectiveness of grappling/athletics is limited primarily by two things: 1.) size limitations; 2.) advantage/disadvantage is binary. Since there are actually a fair number of ways to gain advantage (esp. manipulating vision and obscurement), and many of them don't require you to keep a hand free during combat, grappling suffers diminishing returns as level increases and tactical options grow.

I have seen good results from a non-specialist employing grapple as a primary tactic during some combats. It's a good tactic when it's appropriate (e.g. grapple somebody with one hand on turn one and subsequently Dodge while everyone kills it)--but I have no desire whatsoever to build a dedicated one-trick-pony grappler who relies on that tactic exclusively.

 

[Mistwell]

Correct. So if it weren't for the second clause, you could Magic Missile a target under Sanctuary.

You can't target the warded creature with an "attack or harmful spell." But you could grapple it, or push it, or pour oil on the ground and light it on fire. It doesn't make you invincible, it just forecloses the most direct options for hurting you.

First we are talking about what the creature under the benefit of a Sanctuary spell can do without breaking the spell.

And second, I am not buying it. Grapple is listed specifically as a special attack. That's an attack. You don't need to look any further than "attack" being in the description itself under grapple. You cannot get any more specific than it saying it's an attack in the details of the action itself, so that specific will trump any other general. Grapple is an attack. While under the effect of a Sanctuary spell you cannot make an attack. That seems like the beginning and end of the rules on that topic.

As for the guideline, that's only if you have doubt if something is an attack or not, describing a general rule (to which Grapple is an exception - it's called out as a "special" attack to make it doubly clear it's an exception). When something SAYS it's an attack, no need to look to a general guideline because the guideline requires there to be actual doubt. There's no doubt - it says it's an attack, that's as specific as you can get, so it's an attack.

 

[MostlyDm]

By "dedicated" do you mean "dedicated to that task during this combat," or "dedicated to that tactic for my whole life long"? In general 5E isn't a good edition for uberspecialists, since Bounded Accuracy ensures diminishing returns. (E.g. Stealth +28 and Stealth +17 play out almost identically in practice.)

Observations:

Grappling in particular isn't a great thing to specialize in because it's actually a counter to other tactics, and it's not very useful if the thing you're countering isn't in play in the first place. Specifically, where I've seen Grapple shine is when somebody (e.g. Chuuls on a failed morale check) decides that he's going to ignore opportunity attacks and just charge the softest targets he sees. At that point the deterrence factor of opportunity attacks, and role playing considerations, fly out the window and you need somebody to physically restrain the attacker from bursting through your line. This can be done by simply standing in the right place, if size disparity isn't too big, but if DMG Overrun/Evade rules are in use there's always the chance the bad guy will simply run you over or otherwise get past you. (Yet another thing that Sanctuary wouldn't affect either way, BTW.) In this case, Grappling is essential to get the combat back under control. It's also useful for preventing enemies from running away, preventing them from Dodging, and of course preventing them from arising once you've knocked them prone.

The overall effectiveness of grappling/athletics is limited primarily by two things: 1.) size limitations; 2.) advantage/disadvantage is binary. Since there are actually a fair number of ways to gain advantage (esp. manipulating vision and obscurement), and many of them don't require you to keep a hand free during combat, grappling suffers diminishing returns as level increases and tactical options grow.

I have seen good results from a non-specialist employing grapple as a primary tactic during some combats. It's a good tactic when it's appropriate (e.g. grapple somebody with one hand on turn one and subsequently Dodge while everyone kills it)--but I have no desire whatsoever to build a dedicated one-trick-pony grappler who relies on that tactic exclusively.

Yeah, by "dedicated" I didn't mean a character that does nothing but grappling. More like... a Strength focused character who gets expertise in Athletics and nabs two attacks for the Grapple+Shove(Trip) combo.

Such a character can easily excel in a wide variety of other scenarios... generally my criteria sounds like a Multi Fighter/Rogue, Fighter/Barb, or maybe just an oddly built Bard. All of which have plenty of interesting abilities; heck, Fighter/Rogue is one of my favorite character classes, and has been since 1e AD&D. So I don't think my idea of a "dedicated" grappler would be a one-trick pony by any means.

I generally agree with your assessment of grappling. I've seen it used, and used it, to similar effects. Just not usually with a character who was genuinely superlative at it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yeah, by "dedicated" I didn't mean a character that does nothing but grappling. More like... a Strength focused character who gets expertise in Athletics and nabs two attacks for the Grapple+Shove(Trip) combo.

Such a character can easily excel in a wide variety of other scenarios... generally my criteria sounds like a Multi Fighter/Rogue, Fighter/Barb, or maybe just an oddly built Bard. All of which have plenty of interesting abilities; heck, Fighter/Rogue is one of my favorite character classes, and has been since 1e AD&D. So I don't think my idea of a "dedicated" grappler would be a one-trick pony by any means.

I generally agree with your assessment of grappling. I've seen it used, and used it, to similar effects. Just not usually with a character who was genuinely superlative at it.

Even Expertise in Athletics is too expensive for my taste, since you have to take Rogue or Bard levels to make that work. You can get almost the same effect out of just learning Hex or Enhance Ability. A Paladin 6/Warlock 2 is almost as good of a grappler as a Valor Bard 8 with Athletics Expertise, but he also has a great ranged attack.

YMMV though. I love stuffing 19 PCs' worth of "roles" into 4 PCs, and so I love the idea of a PC who is simultaneously capable of filling roles as a protector/summoner/artillery/scout/melee tank/healer/ranged striker/face. Eight roles in one? Yes, please.

 

[MostlyDm]

Athletics can be a fun skill in my view, so I'm not sure I'd consider that expensive necessarily. If you're doing it solely for grapple, yeah, that's probably overboard.

Interesting that you mention those two spells, by the way. Anecdote time!

The only 5e game I'm a player in, I'm a Hill Dwarf Cleric/Wizard (mostly wizard) in heavy armor (and Strength 15 to allow for this.) With Athletics proficiency due to my background. We have a Bardlock as well, with Hex of course. There's an exceptionally high level evil wizard that has double-crossed us and generally gotten onto our crap-list; not at all a BBEG, just a side-quest antagonist that's too powerful for us to really be "supposed" to take her on directly. (We're level 5, I have her pegged as the Archmage NPC with some extra window dressing.)

The Bardlock and I have resolved to kill her. A little while ago we happened to have picked up a pair of wands... one casts Enhance Ability, the other Silence. So this assault practically writes itself. It's almost like the DM wanted us to take her on (it's his first time on the other side of the screen, so I doubt it; I think the wands were essentially random loot, but I suppose anything's possible.)

 

[MostlyDm]

YMMV though. I love stuffing 19 PCs' worth of "roles" into 4 PCs, and so I love the idea of a PC who is simultaneously capable of filling roles as a protector/summoner/artillery/scout/melee tank/healer/ranged striker/face. Eight roles in one? Yes, please.

Yeah, I hear you. In the aforementioned game, the Bardlock and I are the two with extensive table experience. The DM has played a lot, never DMed, and the other two players are completely new to D&D (they mostly play Shadowrun.)

The difference is stark. The Bardlock pulls multiple-duty as our face, devastating ranged damage, buffing the party, healing, and coming up with outside-the-box planning. My Wizard (Cleric 1/Abjurer 4, technically) is the main tank, battlefield control, buffing, nuking, and thanks to Observant running around with ludicrous passive Perception and Investigation. He's a tome warlock, so we share rituals, and we both scout with familiars.

The other two players are a Ranger and a Fighter/Rogue who had his Rogue levels swapped out for Paladin due to some in-game events. They mostly hit stuff really, really hard, and have a blast doing it. They're good folks, and the Bardlock and I spend a lot of resources building them up, so they don't feel in any way overshadowed. Recent engagement was essentially a cakewalk due to my Web, and Bardic Inspiration enabling a series of Sharpshooter hits against the entangled enemies.

(It's worth disclosing: the DM was ridiculously generous with stats at creation and has given out extra feats like candy. Not decisions I agree with; I actually strongly counseled him in private prior to the game about the repercussions of his decisions. But it's certainly made MAD configurations like mine a lot more viable, since the only two stats I don't care about at all are Dex and Cha. He also allows, and grants through narrative, a lot of outside-the-PHB abilities. Which I... am less opposed to, per se, though I have some criticisms of his implementation at times.)

That got long-winded. Man, get a D&D player talking about his game and it's all over.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Even Expertise in Athletics is too expensive for my taste, since you have to take Rogue or Bard levels to make that work. You can get almost the same effect out of just learning Hex or Enhance Ability. A Paladin 6/Warlock 2 is almost as good of a grappler as a Valor Bard 8 with Athletics Expertise, but he also has a great ranged attack.

YMMV though. I love stuffing 19 PCs' worth of "roles" into 4 PCs, and so I love the idea of a PC who is simultaneously capable of filling roles as a protector/summoner/artillery/scout/melee tank/healer/ranged striker/face. Eight roles in one? Yes, please.

Eh, fighter/rogue with the sneak attack ground and pound routine sounds pretty fun. Of course, you need to use a weapon since you can't sneak attack with unarmed strikes (hence going fighter, not monk) but still, nice one-on-one beatdown potential.