Grapple: LIVING SHIELD [mearls]

AZRogue said:
No, I understand. Really. I'm not upset or anything. And I'm sure that I will be creating such a maneuver, but since the DM of the group I play in usually doesn't, **I** just won't be able to play with it. The players in my campaign will have fun with it though (the bastards).

If I have one complaint, I suppose it is that I was hoping for Grapple rules robust and flexible enough to handle similar things right out of the box. When i first read the report I thought it was a confirmation that this was so, but I guess not. It's too bad, but I'll live. My world didn't fade to black. ;)

Yeah but the difference I see here, is that in prior editions it wasn't "suggested" that you do things like that... It was sort of along the idea of "well, you can, but be careful or you'll screw things up..."

But in this edition, from what was sai about the DMG it sounds like it will be suggested that people design their own (or easy ways to adhock them)
 

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To answer the leading questions, let's take them one at a time:

Jhaelen said:
Well, at least twice: the first time you're surprised by its ability, the second time you expect it and act accordingly.

I immediately see two questions here:
1) Is the old bugbear which doesn't have a cool move better in that regard? How many times can you fight a 3E standard bugbear before it gets old?

There are two points to make here. First the monster with no tricks doesn't get old as quickly as the one trick pony. Why is that? Because the monster with no tricks operates in an ordinary field. Something that is supposed to be ordinary does not suffer because general strategies and tactics suffice against it. That is the meat and potatoes of the game. After eight years of playing 3.x, I still enjoy pitting my players or my characters against orcs.

On the other hand, things that are supposed to be extraordinary get old much more quickly. Even though my characters have probably fought fewer half-dragons and half-fiends together than they have seen orcs in a single battle, I'm sick and tired of half-dragons and half-fiends.

The ordinary does not suffer for being common. It's supposed to be that way. Likewise, lustre of the unique trick often wears off as soon as it ceases to be unique.

2) How often do you expect to encounter a specific subtype of a monster in your adventuring career? In 3E you need an average of 260 encounters to reach level 20. How many of these will typically involve bugbears?

A lot depends upon the monster and campaign in question. I know my Living Greyhawk characters have encountered a lot of orcs, ogres, demons, devils, and bears. They didn't fight too many dragons or Yugoloth/Daemons. Since Living Greyhawk is a very decentralized campaign with adventures that are largely episodic and have a large variety of authors, I would expect that is probably as good an estimate as you can find for a random, unthemed campaign. In Red Hand of Doom, however, I remember fighting a lot of hobgoblins.

One thing to remember, however, is that novelty doesn't just wear off for one campaign. I've played in many campaigns and after the third or fourth half-fiend encounter, they're not just dull for the one character in the one campaign who first encountered them. They're dull for all my characters in all my campaigns.

The thing is: D&D has always had such an overabundance of creatures that you'll never have to encounter the same creature twice, unless your DM has a certain favorite or strives for a more 'realistic' environment by restricting himself to a certain subset of monsters he deemed appropriate for his setting.

Except that that just doesn't seem to be the way it works out in most campaigns I've played. In all current and previous editions of the game, there are small subsets of monsters that are more common than others. As a hypothesis, I'd guess that, like the top 10% of wage earners pay 90% of the total tax bill, the top 25% of monsters in the monster manual probably account for 90% of the total encounters.

In the case of the bugbear strangler the main problem is that there doesn't seem to be any supernatural or magical effect involved in the maneuver, thus leading an observer to the conclusion that anyone should be able to learn the maneuver.
If the maneuver had some obviously otherworldly quality to it noone would question its uniqueness and accept that only bugbear stranglers are able to do it.

That's a separate but related problem. A one or two trick pony design philosophy strikes me as problematic for monsters in general for reasons partially explored above.

It's related to the problem of the manuever's uniqueness because the uniqueness of the manuever separates it from the ordinary field of play. A monster who is good at grappling is a grapple monster. He has his specialty but doesn't do anything fundamentally different from the rest of the monster manual world. A monster who has unusual and unique abilities when grappling differs in some significant way from the rest of the monster manual and requires unique strategies to take it on.

On the other hand, there is also what I think of as the angry bear effect. In one Living Greyhawk module that was written unusually badly, there was an encounter with a pair of bears who were "so angry that calm animals and calm emotions won't work on them." As a friend of mine said after judging it, "my barbarian would like to get so angry that hold person doesn't work on him, but all he gets is +2 to his will saves." There are things that characters might reasonably be able to expect to do and if the rules just say, "you can't do it, that's a unique ability of the bugbear strangler" it damages the consistency of the game.

For that matter, "I'd like to be able to do that" isn't the only way that a unique ability/exception based design philosophy can ruin the consistency and flow of a game. When I recently ran the Daednu demon from the Monster Manual V, I used it's ability to leave one of its flesh-hooks in a target and immobilize the target because the flesh-hook pins the target to the ground. The monster specifies that you need to succeed at a pretty high DC strength check to get un-immobilized. My players' first reaction, listening to the description was, "I want to cut off the flesh-hook that's holding me to the ground and pursue the demon." Being a sensible DM, I allowed it, but the ad-hoc rules I came up with for doing so were not particularly good and the party's cohort mage just dimension doored them off of the hooks and into attack range of the demon.

The point is that any unique ability/exception based paradigm will inevitably produce a lot of results where the designers don't properly anticipate and account for all the likely means of dealing with those abilities and since they are essentially ad-hoc abilities that work "because Mike Mearls says so" the DM is on his own for adjudicating the extenuations.
 

Hmm....well it's very rare for me to use monsters more then a few times in any given campaign, granted there are some like orcs who do get a lot more play time. But I would be surprised if my players encountered bugbears often enough to get bored of one specific type of bugbear. The addition of "cool" bugbears makes it more likely they will ever encounter them at all, as currently there are way more evil humanoids then most campaigns have niches for. Anything that makes a humanoid monster more then just orcs with 2 more HD and slightly higher strength is a good thing.

Most of your complaints about monsters being sort of 1 trick things that get dull after a few time could really apply to almost every monster in 3e. The only real point you make is that it's nice to be able to take a "vanilla" monster like the orc and be able to have dozens of different types of orcs without relying on a couple with stats in the monster manual. If that's difficult to do then I agree it will be a problem. However there are supposed to be rules for creating custom npcs, and I can't imagine they can't be applied to orcs just as easily. In fact one might reasonably create goblin/orc/etc stranglers using the bugbear strangler as an archetype (though a goblin using somebody as a human shield seems kind of wrong for size reasons).

Inconsistant abilities will always be a problem with expansion books, both for player and monster powers. I like the MM5, but the fleshy hook isn't the only ability that's inconsistant in it's application. That's not a problem with monsters abilities as much as a problem with expansions materials.

Finally as stated before players learning monster manuevers should be adjudicated on a case per case basis, but I wouldn't expect monster powers to all be so minor that they could be justifiably learned by spending a single feat or talent.
 

What is weird is I think the reason behind not making it a general rule is kind of well illogical. You wont have space to describe the core maneuver, but you have the space to describe it under the MM entry. Maybe its a flaw of sticking with the 3 book design or something, but when its not a maneuver you have to describe it separately every time it comes up.

So lets say "unique" monster move smother in fat rolls is on the lard monster, but is also found on Ogre Faticus, and Hutticus Rex. Now I have to describe the maneuver 3 times, when if it was just a core maneuver its described once, with a small one line notation that gives its name and PG # to find it with maybe some note like +4 to attack when using the move.

I could just be nit-picking because I don't like the design goal, since I want buckets of maneuvers.


Hopefully the DMG will pull it off so these maneuvers are easy to adjudicate on the fly in a balanced way, but if the players come across have just having a limited set of options and not acting like functioning humanoids I'll just play Fantasy Hero. I'd rather have slow.
 

You miss the beauty of the application. The Lard Monster has the ability as an attack against Fortitude, the Ogre Faticus has it as a follow-up and it is then an attack against AC with a +10 bonus, and the Hutticus Rex has it as a reflex attack (he's in the Monster Manual 3 4e). In each of these abilities, it will also have a slightly different effect. While the target of the Ogre Faticus is merely dazed for one round, the Lard Monster's attack staggers the opponent for one round and then dazes them in the following round and the Hutticus Rex creates an ongoing stun condition that players save against at -4.

By organizing it this way, you can have not only a different description for each ability (thus increasing page count and selling more books), but you can also have multiple mechanics for each ability as well.

Hmm. The more I think about it the more I seem to reject the 4e design philosophy root and branch. The odd thing is that I like most of their cosmology changes I've read about thus far.

Ahglock said:
So lets say "unique" monster move smother in fat rolls is on the lard monster, but is also found on Ogre Faticus, and Hutticus Rex. Now I have to describe the maneuver 3 times, when if it was just a core maneuver its described once, with a small one line notation that gives its name and PG # to find it with maybe some note like +4 to attack when using the move.

I could just be nit-picking because I don't like the design goal, since I want buckets of maneuvers.


Hopefully the DMG will pull it off so these maneuvers are easy to adjudicate on the fly in a balanced way, but if the players come across have just having a limited set of options and not acting like functioning humanoids I'll just play Fantasy Hero. I'd rather have slow.
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
You miss the beauty of the application. The Lard Monster has the ability as an attack against Fortitude, the Ogre Faticus has it as a follow-up and it is then an attack against AC with a +10 bonus, and the Hutticus Rex has it as a reflex attack (he's in the Monster Manual 3 4e). In each of these abilities, it will also have a slightly different effect. While the target of the Ogre Faticus is merely dazed for one round, the Lard Monster's attack staggers the opponent for one round and then dazes them in the following round and the Hutticus Rex creates an ongoing stun condition that players save against at -4.

By organizing it this way, you can have not only a different description for each ability (thus increasing page count and selling more books), but you can also have multiple mechanics for each ability as well.

Hmm. The more I think about it the more I seem to reject the 4e design philosophy root and branch. The odd thing is that I like most of their cosmology changes I've read about thus far.

I like a lot of the design goals. I want faster combat, I want easier set up, I want a more action packed dynamic game play, I want the combats to feel over the top heroic. My concern is what the cost is to reach those goals and am I willing to pay it.

Will there methods even reach those goals and if they do will the rest of the game be worth playing. Sometimes I hear things that make me think they are on the right track other times like when I read this thread I think they are going exactly the wrong direction to even meet there goals, much less make it an enjoyable game after getting there.
 

Note that I'm coming to the conclusing that I reject the design philosophy not the design goals.

That said, probably the biggest thing I could do to get faster, more dynamic combat would be to get my group to shut up and let everyone play their characters individually. No game system or design philosophy is going to fix that.

Ahglock said:
I like a lot of the design goals. I want faster combat, I want easier set up, I want a more action packed dynamic game play, I want the combats to feel over the top heroic. My concern is what the cost is to reach those goals and am I willing to pay it.

Will there methods even reach those goals and if they do will the rest of the game be worth playing. Sometimes I hear things that make me think they are on the right track other times like when I read this thread I think they are going exactly the wrong direction to even meet there goals, much less make it an enjoyable game after getting there.
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
You miss the beauty of the application. The Lard Monster has the ability as an attack against Fortitude, the Ogre Faticus has it as a follow-up and it is then an attack against AC with a +10 bonus, and the Hutticus Rex has it as a reflex attack (he's in the Monster Manual 3 4e). In each of these abilities, it will also have a slightly different effect. While the target of the Ogre Faticus is merely dazed for one round, the Lard Monster's attack staggers the opponent for one round and then dazes them in the following round and the Hutticus Rex creates an ongoing stun condition that players save against at -4.

By organizing it this way, you can have not only a different description for each ability (thus increasing page count and selling more books), but you can also have multiple mechanics for each ability as well.

Hmm. The more I think about it the more I seem to reject the 4e design philosophy root and branch. The odd thing is that I like most of their cosmology changes I've read about thus far.

If monster abilities have differing descriptions and divergent mechanical implementations they aren't exactly the same ability. If you want two monsters to have the same ability you reproduce the exact same text. The general idea is to reduce rules lookup and to not needlessly limit creature design to previous implementations.
 

mearls said:
Now, rules bloat is a bad thing, but it also lets you do more stuff simply by mapping out more ground. The aim with the DMG is to give enough of a framework that a DM can easily adjudicate stuff on the fly in response to crazy ideas that the players come up with.

So, instead of making rules bloat, you make house rules bloat? I'm not sure that's really a good design goal. If there's no logical reason why a player shouldn't be able to do it, then it's really stupid to leave it out, because within moments of the D&D4E being played, a player is going to want to do it, and we're all going to have to make up our own rules for it.
 

So, instead of making rules bloat, you make house rules bloat? I'm not sure that's really a good design goal. If there's no logical reason why a player shouldn't be able to do it, then it's really stupid to leave it out, because within moments of the D&D4E being played, a player is going to want to do it, and we're all going to have to make up our own rules for it.

Word.

"Make Stuff Up" sucks as a rule.
 

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