Grapple: LIVING SHIELD [mearls]

[FadedC]

I've seen alot of people suggest that it should just be a feat people can take, the problem there is what if the ability is more powerful then a single feat or talent should give you? This monster only has one or two special abilities as opposed to the dozens that the players have. It stands the reason it's going to be more powerful then the standard player ability. I wouldn't want to have to limit the special combat manuevers that specialized monsters could do into only things that are weak enough that they could be feats for PCs.

 

[Scribble]

I have to say that interposing a grappled foe doesn't sound like a particularly unique and special thing though - it seems like the kind of thing that anyone might have a go at (it is the meat and drink of many action movies, for instance).

Cheers

See I think what's being missed here is the difference between 2e "pcs can't do it" and 4e "pcs can't do it."

In 2e (and sometimes even 3e) monsters sometimes had special attacks. Things like the ability to eat your brain or dominate you. It was just something they could do in their bag of tricks. PCs had other things they could do, but not necessarily the same things the monsters could do.

In 3e, monsters had special abilities. PCs had special abilities. Sometimes through feats or spells, PCs could emulate the things monsters did.

My guess (from how it sounds about the stuff in the DMs guide...) is that:

Any time a monster has a "special ability" it will be a maneuver. Just because it's not currently listed in the PHB doesn't mean a PC "can't" do it. It just means the DM will have to set the DCs and damage, and level and how the PC can gain access to it. (with guidelines for doing so in the DMG.)

it won't be as hard as converting a special ability to a spell or a feat, because the fundamentals will be exactly the same. All you'll hav to do really is "adjust for User..."

(also this is why I can believe it when they say that the game is very open to expansion. They won't have to decide say whether something should be a feat, a special ability, or an attack option. things that are maneuver like will be maneuvers.)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

every PC is a blue mage^^

---> they just learn abilities from watching monsters. ^^

a basic garotte in PHB without many maneuvers would be nice however, but i guess its ok without them... beware of the bugbears!!!

 

[AZRogue]

I have to say that interposing a grappled foe doesn't sound like a particularly unique and special thing though - it seems like the kind of thing that anyone might have a go at (it is the meat and drink of many action movies, for instance).

Cheers

This. It's cinematic and not unique. There should be an option for a player to do it too.

 

[FadedC]

This. It's cinematic and not unique. There should be an option for a player to do it too.

Seems like there are two issues here. One is that monsters have manuevers that PCs do not. The second is that people think there should be some mechanics for grappling somebody and using them as a human shield.

The second point seems reasonable enough, the key thing is that just because you gain the ability to do this, doesn't necesarily mean you should be able to do this as well as or in the exact same way as the bugbear strangler. His ability is his only trick and is presumably not designed to be balanced among tricks tricks learned by PCs.

 

[AZRogue]

I wouldn't mind if the bugbear's ability was completely unique in how it functioned or how effective it was. I just think there should be some way for the PCs to do something similar. I know once my players see this they're going to want to do it (and it would have come in very useful over the years).

I am all for monsters having unique abilities to make them different--ESPECIALLY if those abilities were designed with making the monster interesting in an encounter (the true guiding principle). But that bugbear ability is just aching to have a PC counterpart. PCs have been trying to do stuff like that for years. Well, I have.

 

[Scribble]

This. It's cinematic and not unique. There should be an option for a player to do it too.

But he's saying there IS an option for the players to do it. It's just not built into the rules from the get go because they can't build EVERY single little idea or concept someone can think of into the rules at first go.

The grab someone and use him as a shield is a maneuver.
PCs have the ability to learn and perform maneuvers.
DM has the ability to create new maneuvers.

If PCs see a maneuver that isn't already int he book, and still want it, with the above tools, the DM should be able to allow them to use it.

 

[Warbringer]

I'm not sure where I see depth is lost in having an "orc archer" and an "orc brute" as opposed to having just an orc.

Because books have a limited amount of print space, and if you get 6 variants of one monster you lose 5 other monsters you could have had.

But then again, the minis don't have interchangeable weapons, do they

 

[rkanodia]

Because books have a limited amount of print space, and if you get 6 variants of one monster you lose 5 other monsters you could have had.

But then again, the minis don't have interchangeable weapons, do they

Sure, there is a cost, but it's not like 6 variants of one monster take as much space as 6 completely distinct monsters. You save a lot of space on Description and Ecology text blocks, and on illustrations.

 

[AZRogue]

But he's saying there IS an option for the players to do it. It's just not built into the rules from the get go because they can't build EVERY single little idea or concept someone can think of into the rules at first go.

The grab someone and use him as a shield is a maneuver.
PCs have the ability to learn and perform maneuvers.
DM has the ability to create new maneuvers.

If PCs see a maneuver that isn't already int he book, and still want it, with the above tools, the DM should be able to allow them to use it.

No, I understand. Really. I'm not upset or anything. And I'm sure that I will be creating such a maneuver, but since the DM of the group I play in usually doesn't, **I** just won't be able to play with it. The players in my campaign will have fun with it though (the bastards).

If I have one complaint, I suppose it is that I was hoping for Grapple rules robust and flexible enough to handle similar things right out of the box. When i first read the report I thought it was a confirmation that this was so, but I guess not. It's too bad, but I'll live. My world didn't fade to black.