Grapple: LIVING SHIELD [mearls]

[Rechan]

I really hope so. Effective unarmed combat that allowed grappling/throwing to be as, or nearly as, effective as other combat options is something that I really want. Most books I've seen fall short after they hit the "kung fu" stereotype and don't bother to go the distance and become something that I actually want to use. Kung fu is great and all, but I want make my DnD equivalent to Steven Seagal here.

I know Exalted has a few tricks.

There's one martial art that focuses on grappling (the Mantis style), and the Brawl area actually deals with throwing and such. There's one ability that lets you pick up an enemy and hit another with the first, dealing damage to both.

Friend of mine wanted to play a boxer whose schtick was punching people into or off things.

 

[AZRogue]

I know Exalted has a few tricks.

There's one martial art that focuses on grappling (the Mantis style), and the Brawl area actually deals with throwing and such. There's one ability that lets you pick up an enemy and hit another with the first, dealing damage to both.

Friend of mine wanted to play a boxer whose schtick was punching people into or off things.

I heard of this. I tried to start an Exalted campaign because of it but couldn't get my players to buy new books. I should have just researched and stolen the rules, but, frankly, there were a lot of other things going on (arguements over 3.0 Harm, for instance, lol).

Aikido, Judo, Jujitsu, Wrestling--combat that allows characters to move, disable, and damage through mechanisms OTHER than strikes--are a must have, IMO. I would hate to try and work it out myself again because then it would only be an NPC schtick. I'd really, REALLY, like to play something like this.

<sigh> I think I'm repeating myself a bit much.

 

[Nork]

I'll agree with that I think 3e is the culprit in terms of conditioning people into thinking that humanoid monsters must be built with rules for PCs, and by extension, anything a humanoid monster can do a player can do.

I'm glad that 4e is dropping this mindset, because I think it is wrong in purely practical terms.

If your making a Bugbear Crippler, you want a monster with a cool move. No more no less.

You can either make a game system where you have to pull out a pile of rule books and go through a monster creation system that claims to be balanced, and then 'do taxes' until you you massage it until it does all the things you want it to (and may do other things you DON'T want it to, as a result of getting to your goal via the construction system).

Or you can just say: Guess what. When a Bugbear Crippler hits a target in a situation that would qualify as a sneak attack, take 1 point of dex damage (but not sneak attack damage, as they don't have sneak attack). Just because.


I think the latter mechanic is better, because the purpose of having a monster is to have an interesting and balanced fight. The purpose of the monster is not to be in compliance with the construction rules of the system. Therefore it follows that any construction rules that impede making a monster fun and balanced, ought to be ignored.


I'll admit I'm biased though. I've always totally ignored the monster rules since 1e. I can remember the first time I had a goblin throw a fireball at my players. They threw a fit about how 'goblins are not wizards'. To which I responded, dude I told you he was wearing a robe, holding a staff, and he told you to sod off and stop bothering him or he was going to fry you. Not my fault you didn't believe it could happen since it wasn't in the Monster Manual.

So the idea of a Bugbear Strangler that jumps out from behind a tapestry, strangles someone, and then uses them as a human shield while the players go 'he did WHAT?!?' 'He isn't allowed to do that!' Has a great deal of appeal to me, since it is exactly how I always did things.

 

[rkanodia]

I know Exalted has a few tricks.

There's one martial art that focuses on grappling (the Mantis style), and the Brawl area actually deals with throwing and such. There's one ability that lets you pick up an enemy and hit another with the first, dealing damage to both.

Friend of mine wanted to play a boxer whose schtick was punching people into or off things.

Setting Sun school from Book of Nine Swords is all about throwing one enemy into another.

 

[Voss]

If your making a Bugbear Crippler, you want a monster with a cool move. No more no less.

Actually, I don't. I want something that fits into the world around it, and meshes with the setting, the rules, and the general flavor of the RPG. I don't want a playing piece to toss at the players, nor do I want monsters that are simply vehicles for the 'cool move' of the moment.

I especially don't want a procession of 'cool moves' that elicit a player response of 'I want to be able to do *that*', to which my only replies are:
Take it as your next power, and we can all hope it doesn't break the game.
Or
Monster powers are just for monsters, not players, so 'Neener, neener, neener'. Especially with abilities like this, where if you have a big fighter with a high strength, there isn't any real reason why he can't do that.

 

[Voss]

Doubled itself.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Ditto. I'll add that I don't want monsters who are just one cool move. How many times can you fight the bugbear strangler before it becomes old and tired. And how many new and "nifty" bugbears can you fight before all the powers become dull.

"We fought the bugbear crippler last week, this week we fought the bugbear strangler, next week we'll fight the bugbear poo-flinger. What's that? It's a bugbear but it flings poo at you. If it hits your fort defense, you are splattered with poo that inflicts a -2 on all attack rolls, skill rolls, defenses, and AC. You can recognize a bugbear poo-flinger because it doesn't wear any pants."

Actually, I don't. I want something that fits into the world around it, and meshes with the setting, the rules, and the general flavor of the RPG. I don't want a playing piece to toss at the players, nor do I want monsters that are simply vehicles for the 'cool move' of the moment.

I especially don't want a procession of 'cool moves' that elicit a player response of 'I want to be able to do *that*', to which my only replies are:
Take it as your next power, and we can all hope it doesn't break the game.
Or
Monster powers are just for monsters, not players, so 'Neener, neener, neener'. Especially with abilities like this, where if you have a big fighter with a high strength, there isn't any real reason why he can't do that.

 

[FadedC]

Well one thing to keep in mind is that just because one group of people have access to a unique and special skill, does not mean that everyone in the world has access to that skill. There have always been certain pieces of special monster knowledge that was not in the hands of the world at large, such as drow sleeping poison. Just like in the real world and particularly in medieval history many secrets of how to make and do things were intentionally kept in the hands of only certainly people.

If a player really complains that want to learn the secret grappling and garotte techniques of the bugbear stranglers the DM can invite the playerto find a sect of them willing to train him, and then have his character spend the next 5 years learning their secret moves.

 

[Roman]

The bugbear's special ability is a very 'cool' maneuver indeed! It does not even grate my simulationist instincts too badly that PCs cannot do it - I don't really have a major problem with that even though it is such an interesting maneuver that it would be nice if PCs could get their hands on it at some point. Much worse, though, it is probably one of those despicable 'per encounter' maneuvers (gosh, I hope they make them 'per 5 minutes' or something like that, which would more or less eliminate most of my problems with them - I hate the metagamey 'per encounter' stuff not to mention the gameplay effects (what happens out of combat, artificial drawing out of combats/shortening of combats/conjoining of combats...)).

 

[Roman]

The bugbear's special ability is a very 'cool' maneuver indeed! It does not even grate my simulationist instincts too badly that PCs cannot do it - I don't really have a major problem with that even though it is such an interesting maneuver that it would be nice if PCs could get their hands on it at some point. Much worse, though, it is probably one of those despicable 'per encounter' maneuvers (gosh, I hope they make them 'per 5 minutes' or something like that, which would more or less eliminate most of my problems with them - I hate the metagamey 'per encounter' stuff not to mention the gameplay effects (what happens out of combat, artificial drawing out of combats/shortening of combats/conjoining of combats...)).

I forgot to add: At some level I like the fact that monsters will tend to have unique abilities for combat of which the bugbear ability is a great example - it has the potential to make fights very interesting! But the removal of a large chunk of non-combat mechanics from landmark monsters (dragons, devils, etcetera) is at least as disheartening as the combat stuff is encouraging. In another thread I suggested giving them rituals to compensate, though I am not sure to what extent the rules do this and even if they do, to what extent it can compensate...