Destil
Explorer
Given how often grapple comes up as a rules headache (from both playability standpoint of PC's tend to get dominated horribly by large creatures with their size bonuses and the fact that the rules are about the most overly complex part of combat). I haven't seen many attempts to fix the rules, maybe I just haven't seen 'em, but I think I'd like to take a shot at it.
Problem 1: Too broad.
While broad rules that can easily be applied to several situations are great in general I think grapple has been over-applied (in part because the rules are not simple). Strike an object and disarm are separate for a reason while grapple seems to cover too much.
A) Wrestling - The default rules for grapple work well here, but are a bit overly complex.
Also there are issues with just how heroic / appropriate this is: everyone knows that you should grab a wizard to shut 'em down, but in how many fantasy stories is that the case? Why does the guy with the sword gave to grab some spellcaster in order to shut them down (let's face it, in melee grapple is much better than ready to stop a spellcaster).
Counterpoint: wizards are usually considered to be best dealt with at best at extremely close quarters. The problem is only grapple allows you to keep them at close quarters reliably within the rules.
B) Large creature grabbing a smaller one (swallow whole et cetera). This sort of thing needs some work for a few reasons -
You know the picture of the Tordek hacking at the red dragon in the PHB? Great art, but can't work via the rules? Why not? The dragon isn't pinning his arms to his side, he's in his mouth, and the dwarf should have more mobility than when he’s caught in a deathlock by a master wrestler. Likewise the standard grapple rules get caught up with exceptions and issues here... Why does a storm giant with 10 foot long arms have to enter a human's space to grab them? Likewise I have a 50/50 chance to shoot my halfling rogue buddy in the 120 foot long dragon's mouth when I let an arrow fly!?!?
C) Small creatures grabbing a larger one. Per the rules grapple is the best way to handle this, but that's suicide. However I like the image of a monk, both arms tightly wrapped about a hill giant's neck, wrists barely interlocked as he struggles to choke the giant out, the giant taking ineffective swats behind his back. Would be a nice place to put that climb skill to use too...
Problem 2: Too complex.
I was originally going to post the grapple rules here... but they take up a huge chunk of space. There's 4 'steps', about 15 options and a good half page of various consequences (and even looking over the SRD on grappling I see nothing about exceptions like the -20 to not be considered grappling rule that are covered in weird places).
So the goal here is to:
1 - Produce three different options, most likely depending on size differences but possibly by what you want to attempt.
2 - Have each of the three sets of rules be about the same complexity as sunder, disarm and (at the extreme) bull rush.
3 - Possibly open up some game 'space' (i.e. opportunities for the players) by allowing the PCs to not be hit as hard for their size against huge creatures with all 3 rules.
4 - Possibly give an attractive alternative option for stopping spellcasters in close combat (about as effective as the current grappling rules).
Grapple - Grappling is a wrestling match between two opponents. These opponents must be within one size catagory of each other (see the Grab rules below for larger or smaller creatures).
Repeatedly in a grapple you make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is:
Base attack bonus + Str or Dex modifier + special size modifier
Str or Dex: You use whichever of the two modifiers has the higher bonus for a grapple check.
Special Size Modifier: The special size modifier for a grapple check is the opposite of your size bonus to AC and damage (i.e. a small creature has a -1 size modifier to grapple, while a large creature has a +1). Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll.
1. Attempting to start or join a grapple provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent you wish to grapple. If this attack deals damage your opponent adds the damage dealt to their grapple check below.
2. You and your opponent make opposed grapple checks, if the opponent wishes to avoid the grapple. If they do not or it you win you are now grappling. If you loose you do not start the grapple (but if you have more than one attack per round you may attempt to initiate a grapple more than once per round).
This needs work to condense and simplify the possible options. What options are worth keeping?
Once grappled
As an attack action you can deal damage as if with an unarmed strike to a grappled opponent with a sucessfull opposed grapple roll.
As an attack action you can strike an opponent with a light weapon. You make an attack against their normal AC with a -2 penelity to hit.
As a standard action you can cast a one action spell by makeing a concentration check DC 15 + spell level. If the spell has a somatic component you must also make a grapple check to twist an arm free for a moment.
As a standard action you can move all grappled opponents up to half your speed by winning an opposed grapple check.
As a standard action you can attempt an escape artist check to escape a grapple. All opponents who are grappling you make grapple checks, if you win you are no longer grappled and can move up to twice your speed, not provoking attacks of oppertunity from any opponents that had grappled you.
Grab
When you attempt to grapple someone much smaller or larger than you (more than 1 size category) is considered a grab instead of a grapple. Grabing a smaller opponent is not full body wresteling but instead holding them with only one part of your (i.e. a dragon holding a human in it's mouth).
Grabbing an opponent is an attack action.
First make a melee touch attack, this provokes an attack of oppertunity. Any damage you take is added to your opponent's check described below.
You and the creature you wish to grab make opposed checks. You each use the better of your Str or Dex mods, you gain a +4 bonus to this check for every size category diffrence between you. The opponent can choose to use an escape artist check in place of this check. If you succede you grab the opponent.
In order to maintain a grab you must use a hand (claw, mouth et cetera), you can not make attacks with this limb as long as the opponent is grabbed.
A grabbed chacachter suffers a -4 penelity to attacks, AC and checks.
While grabbed you can act normally but can not move on your own and to cast any spells you must make a concentration check DC 15 + spell level.
Attemption to escape from a grab is a move action. You make a sheck just like the check to avoid being grabbed, and you add 1/2 of any damage dealt to the creature grabing you to this check.
A smaller charachter can attempt to grab a larger one as well. This works similary to grab with the follwing exceptions:
The smaller charchter must enter the larger charachter's space first.
The smaller charachter can use a climb check in place of a grab check.
If sucessfull maintaining the grab is a move action every round for the smaller charachter. They gain a +4 bonus to hit and AC against the opponent they have grabbed. In addition at the DM's discression they ay be unable to be attacked in certian ways (for instance if you climb onto a dragon's back it won't be able to bite you).
Otherwise grabbing a larger charachter is treated as if you are climbing. The climb DC is set by the DM.
Haray
As a standard action you can haray a single opponent if you end your movement for the round with them within your threatened area.
If your harried opponent attempts to move outside of your threatened area you and the opponent immediatly make opposed attack rolls, you each add your dextarity and size modifiers to these checks. If you win you can choose to follow them and their movement rate for the round is halved, you can move no further than your normal speed this way. You can also attempt an imediate attack of oppertunity against them before their movement.
A 5' step taken by a haraied opponent never provokes an attack of oppertunity, but you can automatically follow them without a roll.
A haraied opponent gains no benifit from casting spells or preforming other actions requiring concentration on the defensive unless they have the Combat Casting feat (they still provoke an attack of oppertunity from you). In addition you gain a +2 bonus to hit your haraied opponent with attacks of oppertunity and concentration checks made by a haraied opponent suffer a -4 penelity.
Problem 1: Too broad.
While broad rules that can easily be applied to several situations are great in general I think grapple has been over-applied (in part because the rules are not simple). Strike an object and disarm are separate for a reason while grapple seems to cover too much.
A) Wrestling - The default rules for grapple work well here, but are a bit overly complex.
Also there are issues with just how heroic / appropriate this is: everyone knows that you should grab a wizard to shut 'em down, but in how many fantasy stories is that the case? Why does the guy with the sword gave to grab some spellcaster in order to shut them down (let's face it, in melee grapple is much better than ready to stop a spellcaster).
Counterpoint: wizards are usually considered to be best dealt with at best at extremely close quarters. The problem is only grapple allows you to keep them at close quarters reliably within the rules.
B) Large creature grabbing a smaller one (swallow whole et cetera). This sort of thing needs some work for a few reasons -
You know the picture of the Tordek hacking at the red dragon in the PHB? Great art, but can't work via the rules? Why not? The dragon isn't pinning his arms to his side, he's in his mouth, and the dwarf should have more mobility than when he’s caught in a deathlock by a master wrestler. Likewise the standard grapple rules get caught up with exceptions and issues here... Why does a storm giant with 10 foot long arms have to enter a human's space to grab them? Likewise I have a 50/50 chance to shoot my halfling rogue buddy in the 120 foot long dragon's mouth when I let an arrow fly!?!?
C) Small creatures grabbing a larger one. Per the rules grapple is the best way to handle this, but that's suicide. However I like the image of a monk, both arms tightly wrapped about a hill giant's neck, wrists barely interlocked as he struggles to choke the giant out, the giant taking ineffective swats behind his back. Would be a nice place to put that climb skill to use too...
Problem 2: Too complex.
I was originally going to post the grapple rules here... but they take up a huge chunk of space. There's 4 'steps', about 15 options and a good half page of various consequences (and even looking over the SRD on grappling I see nothing about exceptions like the -20 to not be considered grappling rule that are covered in weird places).
So the goal here is to:
1 - Produce three different options, most likely depending on size differences but possibly by what you want to attempt.
2 - Have each of the three sets of rules be about the same complexity as sunder, disarm and (at the extreme) bull rush.
3 - Possibly open up some game 'space' (i.e. opportunities for the players) by allowing the PCs to not be hit as hard for their size against huge creatures with all 3 rules.
4 - Possibly give an attractive alternative option for stopping spellcasters in close combat (about as effective as the current grappling rules).
Grapple - Grappling is a wrestling match between two opponents. These opponents must be within one size catagory of each other (see the Grab rules below for larger or smaller creatures).
Repeatedly in a grapple you make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is:
Base attack bonus + Str or Dex modifier + special size modifier
Str or Dex: You use whichever of the two modifiers has the higher bonus for a grapple check.
Special Size Modifier: The special size modifier for a grapple check is the opposite of your size bonus to AC and damage (i.e. a small creature has a -1 size modifier to grapple, while a large creature has a +1). Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll.
1. Attempting to start or join a grapple provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent you wish to grapple. If this attack deals damage your opponent adds the damage dealt to their grapple check below.
2. You and your opponent make opposed grapple checks, if the opponent wishes to avoid the grapple. If they do not or it you win you are now grappling. If you loose you do not start the grapple (but if you have more than one attack per round you may attempt to initiate a grapple more than once per round).
This needs work to condense and simplify the possible options. What options are worth keeping?
Once grappled
As an attack action you can deal damage as if with an unarmed strike to a grappled opponent with a sucessfull opposed grapple roll.
As an attack action you can strike an opponent with a light weapon. You make an attack against their normal AC with a -2 penelity to hit.
As a standard action you can cast a one action spell by makeing a concentration check DC 15 + spell level. If the spell has a somatic component you must also make a grapple check to twist an arm free for a moment.
As a standard action you can move all grappled opponents up to half your speed by winning an opposed grapple check.
As a standard action you can attempt an escape artist check to escape a grapple. All opponents who are grappling you make grapple checks, if you win you are no longer grappled and can move up to twice your speed, not provoking attacks of oppertunity from any opponents that had grappled you.
Grab
When you attempt to grapple someone much smaller or larger than you (more than 1 size category) is considered a grab instead of a grapple. Grabing a smaller opponent is not full body wresteling but instead holding them with only one part of your (i.e. a dragon holding a human in it's mouth).
Grabbing an opponent is an attack action.
First make a melee touch attack, this provokes an attack of oppertunity. Any damage you take is added to your opponent's check described below.
You and the creature you wish to grab make opposed checks. You each use the better of your Str or Dex mods, you gain a +4 bonus to this check for every size category diffrence between you. The opponent can choose to use an escape artist check in place of this check. If you succede you grab the opponent.
In order to maintain a grab you must use a hand (claw, mouth et cetera), you can not make attacks with this limb as long as the opponent is grabbed.
A grabbed chacachter suffers a -4 penelity to attacks, AC and checks.
While grabbed you can act normally but can not move on your own and to cast any spells you must make a concentration check DC 15 + spell level.
Attemption to escape from a grab is a move action. You make a sheck just like the check to avoid being grabbed, and you add 1/2 of any damage dealt to the creature grabing you to this check.
A smaller charachter can attempt to grab a larger one as well. This works similary to grab with the follwing exceptions:
The smaller charchter must enter the larger charachter's space first.
The smaller charachter can use a climb check in place of a grab check.
If sucessfull maintaining the grab is a move action every round for the smaller charachter. They gain a +4 bonus to hit and AC against the opponent they have grabbed. In addition at the DM's discression they ay be unable to be attacked in certian ways (for instance if you climb onto a dragon's back it won't be able to bite you).
Otherwise grabbing a larger charachter is treated as if you are climbing. The climb DC is set by the DM.
Haray
As a standard action you can haray a single opponent if you end your movement for the round with them within your threatened area.
If your harried opponent attempts to move outside of your threatened area you and the opponent immediatly make opposed attack rolls, you each add your dextarity and size modifiers to these checks. If you win you can choose to follow them and their movement rate for the round is halved, you can move no further than your normal speed this way. You can also attempt an imediate attack of oppertunity against them before their movement.
A 5' step taken by a haraied opponent never provokes an attack of oppertunity, but you can automatically follow them without a roll.
A haraied opponent gains no benifit from casting spells or preforming other actions requiring concentration on the defensive unless they have the Combat Casting feat (they still provoke an attack of oppertunity from you). In addition you gain a +2 bonus to hit your haraied opponent with attacks of oppertunity and concentration checks made by a haraied opponent suffer a -4 penelity.
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