D&D 3E/3.5 Grappling [3.0 & 3.5]

[GakToid]

How do you make the best grappler?

It's not always the best choice in combat (losing dex to AC and all that), but it's a character concept I've been working on that I'm hoping the vast knowledge in this forum will perfect.

The character is currently 3.0, but I'm trying to convince the DM to allow the 3.5 version of certain feats.

Thanks.

-Gak Toid

 

[MarauderX]

Try a monk with high Str. His other high abilities would be Dex and Wis to help with AC, but a high Str monk would be hard to avoid at higher levels once he gets ranks in tumble and faster movement. Monks can also do damage once an opponent is pinned, and can decide to do lethal or subdual damage on a whim. Not sure what level you are at, but you might want to take some feats to help out besides Improved Grapple, such as Dodge or Improved Disarm (once you have an opponent pinned, to prevent them from using wands and such) or feats out of OA.

 

[Camarath]

What supplements can you use?

 

[Epametheus]

I've done it as a fighter; The higher BAB and being able to wear full plate with enchanted armor spikes more than makes up for the monk abilities.

You need Improved Grapple from OA. Everything changes once you can start a grapple reliably.

It works astonishingly well if there's a second fighter that's a damage monster in the party. The other fighter and I even killed a dragon through this, and it was pretty much just us doing the damage.

 

[GakToid]

Update Re: Grappling

Pretty much any supplement is available. The character is going to be an 8th level fighter. Due to some 'reorganization' (the PrC I'm currently in is being removed from the game -- don't ask) I'm going to be able to rebuild him slightly. (IE minor changes to the character are OK.)

I've already convinced the DM to use the 3.5 version of Improved Grapple.

The feats he's got so far are:
Toughness
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple (OA, pg 63) --> (PH 3.5)
Combat Reflexes
Close-Quarters Fighting (S&F, pg 5)
Power Attack
Power Throw (War, pg 46)
Blind-Fight
Dodge

Ability scores:
STR 18
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 14

I'm probably going to get rid of Dodge (PrC gave me Imp Trip and I needed this for Great Throw). Power Throw I'm debating about.

What the problem boils down to:

Grapple = BAB + STR (+ size)

Basically, every fighter is as good at grappling as this grapple focused character (not so much with the new Imp Grapple feat).

-Gak Toid

p.s. I thought I saw a feat that would consider the character one sized larger for the purpose of grappling. Am I insane?

 

[Camarath]

p.s. I thought I saw a feat that would consider the character one sized larger for the purpose of grappling. Am I insane?

Jontunbrud from Races of Fearun does that. It is a 1st level only feat. [edit: also the Brawny and Giant feat pair (both 1st level only) from Swashbuckling Adventures do that as well (and more)]

You should also consider Earth's Embrace (automatic crit damage each round on pin) and Choke Hold (3 rounds pin save vs unconscious) feats from OA or the CW versions of those feats. Also Grappling Expertise from the Quintessential Fighter allows you to add your Dex bonus to grappling.

 

[Epametheus]

Heck with your DM to see what weapon focus/spec and feat can aid with your grapples.

From the SRD:
Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)
An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.

If your DM will allow enchanted armor spikes to count towards your grapple bonus, you've just gained a nice edge over other fighters.

Also, most enemies fighters will lose much of their damage output if they have to spend their best attacks just getting away from you.

 

[GakToid]

follow up question

There is, of course, a follow up question. How does a character focused on grappling (a single opponent combat option) deal with a large group of enemies?

Sunder or disarm and then grapple?
Focus on unarmed strikes and just punch people?
Pick up some weapon skills?

I was hoping to use Imp Trip + Great Throw + Spiked Chain for some crazy trip action (I knock you down and put you over here, prone and flanked by the rogue), but I no longer qualify for Imp Trip (Int too low).

Any ideas are helpful.
Thanks.

-Gak Toid

 

[MarauderX]

See my Wizard1/Fighter2/Monk5 build attached. He has Wizard1 for mage armor and casting simple arcane stuff (the party didn't have any mages), Fighter2 for 2 levels of good BAB and 2 feats, and the rest in Monk. The speed is great coupled with the high tumble skill, and with Combat Reflexes and Great throw he can toss people down with AoOs. His Str isn't that high since he has other duties with the party, so that could be rearranged for your PC. It was done with a 32-point build.

[EDIT] Attachments aren't working on ENWorld today I guess... so here are the feats...

Automatic feats/abilities:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Still Mind (+2 vs. Enchant)
Evasion (Save for no damage)
Scribe Scroll
Summon Familiar
Ki Strike (magic)
Slow Fall - 20 feet
Purity of Body (no diseases)

Chosen:
Stunning Attack (DC=16, x3)
Expertise (trade BAB to AC)
Dodge (+1 AC vs. 1 opponent)
Combat Reflexes (3 AoOs)
Improved Trip (+4 trip)
Great Throw (toss opponent)
Defensive Throw (AoO trip)
Deflect Arrows (Auto 1/rnd)

Not really a grappling build, but you will need the Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple to start doing damage to your opponent once you have them down. I went with this build because it allows him to deal with multiple opponents and can throw them over balconies, off cliffs, onto flaming areas, into the path of a wagon, etc. It's really fun if not dangerous to be in the thick of a fight eventhough his AC goes from the worst in the party to the best with the Mage armor. Again, add in the tumble and high movement rate and you become a mage/archer slayer pretty easily.

 

[youspoonybard]

It depends.

How big is your group on Polymorph Any Object?

Being a good grappler depends on having:

1) Size. Bigger is better.
2) BAB. More is good.
3) Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike. Of course.
4) Improved Grab, Constrict, Armor Spikes. A person with these 3 things will do 4x str damage (+plus some other stuff) when using the opposed grapple check "Damage your Opponent" option.

If your group lets you Polymorph into forms, that's good! I dunno what the best form is with PaO. I do know that as a Druid, an Animal Growthed to Gargantuan Constrictor Snake does pretty well.