Grappling and Multiple Attacks

[Prism]

To sumarize some of the great points made by various people this is how I now see it

Starts the round grappling

A creature can only attack with 1 natural weapon due to the quotes from the rake ability and the main grapple rules

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe

However with a full attack you are allowed mutiple grapple attempts based on your BAB and this includes creatures with natural attacks.

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

They couldn't make more than 1 attack a round but they could use the other iterative attacks to perform other actions such as pin, escape, damage opponent, use opponents weapon or break anothers pin. None of these are actual attacks (they are grapple checks) and therefore are not limited by the normal rule of 1 attack only with each natural weapon

Grapples an opponent part way through its attacks sequence

The creature follows its normal full attack sequence until it grapples its opponent. At this point it is grappling and loses all remaining natural attacks. This is supported by the use of the -20 option which basically prevents the creature from being grappled itself

The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents

So if you can use your remaining attacks as a benefit when you take the -20 I can only assume you lose your remaining attacks when you don't. This would also support the quotes above which only allow 1 natural weapon when grappling. A giant octopus or such like with many attacks is probably best taking the -20 option here to keep its other attacks

I also believe that at this point the creature would get any iterative attacks based upon BAB to allow it to do additonal grapple actions, assuming it is in the middle of a full attack.

Ending the grapple part way through the grapple sequence

This could be because the opponent dies or is swallowed as an example. At this point the creature has only used 1 natural weapon in the round (possibly mutliple iterative grapples with it however) and therefore, now not being grappled anymore can use any remaining natural attacks as normal to attack other opponents - and possibly even grapple them

Creature chooses to grapple with 1 part of its body

The creatures gets iterative grapple attempts with its 1 body part and still gets its remaining attacks in addition. The -20 on the grapple checks makes this a pretty difficult option but probably worth it for multiattack creatures like the giant octopus or dragons

 

[Pinotage]

The description of 'Rake' says that it can 'only attack with one of its natural weapons'. I don't believe that says it only gets one attack. Presumably if it doesn't want to use a grapple check to damage an opponent with the weapon used to gain the hold, it can attack with one of its other natural weapons at -4 as many times as its BAB would allow?

So a creature with +6 BAB and a claw/claw/bite routine and has a hold with the bite attack could either cause bite damage that round, or attack twice with 'one' on its claws at +6/+1 and -4 penalty for claw damage. The rake would then allow two more attacks in both cases.

Pinotage

 

[noeuphoria]

To sumarize some of the great points made by various people this is how I now see it

Ending the grapple part way through the grapple sequence

This could be because the opponent dies or is swallowed as an example. At this point the creature has only used 1 natural weapon in the round (possibly mutliple iterative grapples with it however) and therefore, now not being grappled anymore can use any remaining natural attacks as normal to attack other opponents - and possibly even grapple them

Creature chooses to grapple with 1 part of its body

The creatures gets iterative grapple attempts with its 1 body part and still gets its remaining attacks in addition. The -20 on the grapple checks makes this a pretty difficult option but probably worth it for multiattack creatures like the giant octopus or dragons

So the Dragon actually circumvents the natural attack rules? He gets iterative attacks with his bite, and then gets to use all his other natural weapons? How is it a that the dragon actually gains attacks due to grappling? This seem broken as the iterative attack rules for creature's with natural weapons don't give dragons a full attack like bite +40/+35/+30/+25, 2 claws + 30, 2 wing buffets +33, 1 tail slap +29. Yet now, if the dragon grapples, that's exactly what it gets, iterative attack with primary natural weapon, and secondaries with all natural weapons.

 

[noeuphoria]

Speaking of that, what's to stop a druid (or wiz/sorc) from carrying around a huge scimitar (maybe shrunk w/shrink item), then polymorphing into a dragon, picking up the huge scimitar, getting iterative attacks with it, and then owning with the rest of the dragon's "secondary natural attacks"?

 

[Prism]

So the Dragon actually circumvents the natural attack rules? He gets iterative attacks with his bite, and then gets to use all his other natural weapons? How is it a that the dragon actually gains attacks due to grappling? This seem broken as the iterative attack rules for creature's with natural weapons don't give dragons a full attack like bite +40/+35/+30/+25, 2 claws + 30, 2 wing buffets +33, 1 tail slap +29. Yet now, if the dragon grapples, that's exactly what it gets, iterative attack with primary natural weapon, and secondaries with all natural weapons.

The dragon doesn't get iterative attacks with his bite. He gets only 1 attack. However he can have iterative grapples with the bite like any other creature with a high BAB. A grapple is not an attack and therefore isn't limited to just 1 attack. The number of grapples you can have per round is dependant on your BAB only, not multiple limbs, or whether you have a natural attack or not

In this situation, at any time you stop grappling I can see no reason why you can't have your normal attacks

Speaking of that, what's to stop a druid (or wiz/sorc) from carrying around a huge scimitar (maybe shrunk w/shrink item), then polymorphing into a dragon, picking up the huge scimitar, getting iterative attacks with it, and then owning with the rest of the dragon's "secondary natural attacks"?

This is perfectly fine. There are many examples of monsters that use a weapon to get mutiple iterative attacks and then also get their extra natural attacks e.g lizardman, balor, lycanthropes. A polymorphed character would allow the same option

 

[Izerath]

OK now that you've all got yourselves twisted into a pretzel.....

Explain to me why the Multi-attack feat exists then.....

I apologize in advance and mean no offense to anyone, but I don't think anyone is correct so far.

I had this arguement (yes arguement) with one of my players, which forced me to drive home the point of law in the rules, something which I rather abhor personally. In this case I was justified. Also, apologies for the long post, but it's not an easy topic to cover.....

Here is a summary of how I interpret the rules on grappling for PCs and then Monsters:

For PCs, based on SRD 3.5 with interpretation:

- Initiating a Grapple is a melee attack action. If you have multiple attacks and choose a Full-Round Attack action, you can choose to initiate a grapple on each successive melee attack, at successively lower base attack bonuses of course, until you succeed. This means if you fail to grapple the first time, you can try a second time, etc. at successively lower BABs.
- Once you succeed at initiating a grapple and you Maintain the Grapple, you have certain “Grappling Options” available to use.
- If you use a Full-Round Attack action and attempt to initiate a grapple, once you succeed at initiating the grapple and you choose to maintain it, it also means you can use certain “Grappling Options” for successive remaining attacks, so long as those options only require a melee attack to execute.

Now that's how things go down with humanoid characters. In general, we're talking bipeds here. Here's an example with a monk:

Jamill the monk wants to wrestle a hobgoblin. He moves to the hobgoblin (Move action) and initiates a grapple (single melee attack, which uses his remaining Standard action).

- Step 1: AoO – Jamill has Improved Grapple so we bypass AoOs,
- Step 2: Melee touch attack - Jamill succeeded and
- Step 3: Opposed Grapple checks - Jamill succeeded. At this point under Step 3, it says on pg. 156 “If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.” The grappling initiation sequence is clear – you deal damage at the start of the grapple (Step 3). You are not considered grappling at the start of the action, thus you do not receive the choice to use “Grappling Options.” Lastly,
- Step 4: You have the option to maintain the grapple and move into the target’s square. Maintaining the grapple is the only way you can have the “If You’re Grappling” options (p156 v3.5) available to you. Jamill decides to hold on to his foe.

If the hobgoblin does not escape during his action, Jamil can full attack the following round using multiple attacks to use any GRAPPLING OPTION he desires; deal damage, pin, etc.

Now, consider "Monsters."

From the SRD 3.5 on Monsters:

Attack
This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action. In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well. The attack line provides the weapon used (natural or manufactured), attack bonus, and form of attack (melee or ranged). The attack bonus given includes modifications for size and Strength (for melee attacks) or Dexterity (for ranged attacks). A creature with the Weapon Finesse feat can use its Dexterity modifier on melee attacks. If the creature uses natural attacks, the natural weapon given here is the creature’s primary natural weapon. If the creature has several different weapons at its disposal, the alternatives are shown, with each different attack separated by the word “or.” A creature can use one of its secondary natural weapons when making an attack action, but if it does it takes an attack penalty, as noted in the Full Attack section below. The damage that each attack deals is noted parenthetically. Damage from an attack is always at least 1 point, even if a subtraction from a die roll reduces the result to 0 or lower.

Full Attack
This line shows all the physical attacks the creature makes when it uses a full-round action to make a full attack. It gives the number of attacks along with the weapon, attack bonus, and form of attack (melee or ranged).
- The first entry is for the creature’s primary weapon, with an attack bonus including modifications for size and Strength (for melee attacks) or Dexterity (for ranged attacks). A creature with the Weapon Finesse feat can use its Dexterity modifier on melee attacks. - The remaining weapons are secondary, and attacks with them are made with a –5 penalty to the attack roll, no matter how many there are. Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.
- The damage that each attack deals is noted parenthetically. Damage from an attack is always at least 1 point, even if a subtraction from a die roll reduces the result to 0 or lower.
- A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1-1/2 times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first.
- Secondary attacks add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses.
- If any attacks also have some special effect other than damage, that information is given here.
- Unless noted otherwise, creatures using natural weapons deal double damage on critical hits.

EVERYTHING you need is here. If there is more than one primary attack listed, it gets that many during a full attack action. A carrion crawler gets 8 tentacle attacks; An aboleth gets 4 tentacle attacks; An ape gets 2 claw attacks and a bite. You should get the point by now.

Lets use a chimera as an example:

CHIMERA
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 9d10+27 (76 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 19 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+17
Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+4)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+4) and bite +12 melee (1d8+4) and gore +12 melee (1d8+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +6
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +1*, Listen +9, Spot +9
Feats: Alertness, Hover, Iron Will, Multiattack
Environment: Temperate hills
Organization: Solitary, pride (3–5), or flight (6–13)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: 10–13 HD (Large); 14–27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +2 (cohort)

In a FULL ATTACK ACTION, the chimera gets 2 bite attacks at +12, one gore attack at +12 (all primary weapons, one for each head) and 2 claw attacks at +10 (secondary attacks, only -2 since it has Multiattack feat).

That's right. 5 attacks. Ready? It gets worse.

The chimera is going to attempt to GRAPPLE (a Special Attack) with its jaws (bite attacks).

- The chimera moves in to grapple, provoking an AoO. Then it makes a melee TOUCH attack having to hit the opponent with its first bite attack. (+12)
- Then it makes an opposed grapple check against the opponent (+17). Let's say for simplicity that it succeeds and grapples its opponent and it wants to MAINTAIN its hold on the target, locking its iron jaws around the poor target.
- Now the chimera has only the "IF YOU'RE GRAPPLING" options (pg. 156) available for the remainder of its attacks, assuming it wants to maintain its hold on the victim. That's right, 4 more attacks, so long as they fall under the GRAPPLING OPTIONS. So, it holds on to the poor victim as it chows down with its other bite (+12, -4 because its grappling, so +8), gore the victim (+8) and Maul the victim with both claws (+6 for each).

Then the victim gets an action and tries to escape. Against a +17 Grapple modifier, the victim has little chance to succeed, and fails to escape.....if the victim has multiple attacks and decides to use a full attack action to attempt to escape, he can make multiple attempts at successively lower bonuses as normal. For my example, he fails.....

Next round the grapple continues (since the victim did not escape and the chimera did not let him loose) and it decides to move with its captured prey, taking to the air. It has to make an opposed grapple check to move half its speed (under GRAPPLING OPTIONS) and easily does so.....our poor victim is the chimera's next meal.....

Pretty grim, but this is why monsters are monsters. Grappling removes the 5-foot step options, makes an awesome equalizer when its 1 on 4 or more, and rightly so, Grappling monsters are fearsome creatures. Use them that way and it will generate much more respect for the monsters from your players. One chimera is hardly a pushover. For that matter, any monster with multiple attacks should be feared. They're MONSTERS!!!!

They key advantage to grappling with multiple attacks is that your opponent has to escape or he cannot move. Monsters that can grapple will quickly take down a PC, especially if your players try to do anything else but escape.

Whew that took a while......

 

[Prism]

Explain to me why the Multi-attack feat exists then.....

Simply increases your attack bonus with secondary weapons. Not sure the relevance to grappling particularily

EVERYTHING you need is here. If there is more than one primary attack listed, it gets that many during a full attack action. A carrion crawler gets 8 tentacle attacks; An aboleth gets 4 tentacle attacks; An ape gets 2 claw attacks and a bite. You should get the point by now.

I'm cool with everything you said up to here, both on the example of the monk grappling and the standard number of attacks for a monster

Next bit gets a bit more complicated. I have to say now that how you describe it is how I thought it worked until I joined into this thread. I the reason I did that is because I had some doubt that simply having multiple attacks made you a better grappler. If it was that simple a carrion crawler would be a better grappler than a constrictor snake which didn't seem right.

The chimera is going to attempt to GRAPPLE (a Special Attack) with its jaws (bite attacks).

- The chimera moves in to grapple, provoking an AoO. Then it makes a melee TOUCH attack having to hit the opponent with its first bite attack. (+12)
- Then it makes an opposed grapple check against the opponent (+17). Let's say for simplicity that it succeeds and grapples its opponent and it wants to MAINTAIN its hold on the target, locking its iron jaws around the poor target.

I agree so far although this thread so far has mainly been focused on the Improved Grab special attack rather than the grapple attack option but so far things are pretty similiar

- Now the chimera has only the "IF YOU'RE GRAPPLING" options (pg. 156) available for the remainder of its attacks, assuming it wants to maintain its hold on the victim. That's right, 4 more attacks, so long as they fall under the GRAPPLING OPTIONS. So, it holds on to the poor victim as it chows down with its other bite (+12, -4 because its grappling, so +8), gore the victim (+8) and Maul the victim with both claws (+6 for each).

This bit goes directly against the rules for grappling that I and some others quoted in an earlier post which specifically states you get no offhand attacks while grappling and that a creature can only attack with 1 natural attack when grappling. The improved grab ability also states that you lose all your remaining attacks if you grab without taking a -20 penalty. Check the quotes from the rake special attack, improved grab and the PHB quote

They key advantage to grappling with multiple attacks is that your opponent has to escape or he cannot move. Monsters that can grapple will quickly take down a PC, especially if your players try to do anything else but escape.

Monsters should be no better/no worse at grappling than humanoids just because they are considered monsters and just because some of them have more attacks than others.

 

[Izerath]

OK Reset the discussion.

Alright – I understand your points, but there are some flaws. I had to tear apart grappling to get to them, but here’s what I was out to understand by doing so.

My question is this: If a monster has 8 tentacles, all of which are its primary natural weapon, why can it not use the primary weapon multiple times just like a fighter can use his primary weapon multiple times using his BAB? Should the creature really be penalized?

I say NO. Here’s my argument:

In the PH (pg 156, also in SRD 3.5) it states:

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

The following are considered attack actions (those that take the place an attack rather than being a Standard action or Move Action). Per the SRD and PH, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks:

Activate a Magic Item
Attack Your Opponent
Damage Your Opponent
Escape from a Grapple
Pin Your Opponent
Break Another’s Pin
Use Opponent’s Weapon

The rest of the actions require either Standard, Move or Full-Round actions to execute, thus can only be done once.

Cast a Spell
Draw a Light Weapon
Move
Retrieve a Spell Component

UNDERSTANDING A WEAPON’S CATEGORY

Now, a creature has two categories of weapons, just as a PC does – primary (for a PC this is the dominant hand) and secondary (for a PC this is the off-hand).

A PC uses a primary weapon in his dominant hand and a SECONDARY weapon in his off-hand. Furthermore, the secondary weapon used by the PC must be a light weapon. A PC uses his BAB to determine the total number of attacks it gets using his primary weapon. Secondary weapons simply give a PC one additional attack per round.

A creature on the other hand gets X number of primary weapon attacks, and Y number of secondary weapon attacks. It does not use BAB to determine the number of attacks, it just gets that many primary and that many secondary attacks each round it uses the Full Attack action. Otherwise in a Standard action, it gets one attack with its primary weapon category.

WHERE'S THE BEEF?

So here’s my beef with the current consensus:

If a PC with a BAB of +20 is allowed 4 attacks using its primary weapon, then why can’t the octopus, carrion crawler or any other creature with multiple attacks with its primary weapon not get that same benefit?

I don’t see the difference. A bite is a bite, a tentacle is a tentacle, a sword is a sword. Each creature, whether PC or monster, has primary and secondary weapons.

In the PC’s case, it uses BAB to determine the total number of attacks and is not allowed to use secondary weapons (off-hand) during a grapple. The same rule applies to the monster. It is able to use its primary weapon to get multiple attacks, just as the PC does. Denying the monster his multiple attacks while grappling, when they are his primary weapon, is the same as denying the fighter his multiple attacks with his sword while he is grappling.

Splitting hairs because a monster has multiple limbs, and we don’t, is incorrect and certainly biased against the creature. We as humans have trouble grasping the concept of multiple primary limbs because we will never have them. The rules assume that a primary weapon is the same as our own principle of a primary weapon used in our dominant hand. We can use it quickly and proficiently. So why is the monster denied this simple principle in the current consensus?

Monsters do not use BAB. It says that in the SRD right up front. It also clearly states under the monster statistics that in a full-round action, a monster gets x number of primary weapon attacks and Y number of secondary weapon attacks.

SRD 3.5 states:

The first entry is for the creature’s primary weapon, with an attack bonus including modifications for size and Strength (for melee attacks) or Dexterity (for ranged attacks). … The remaining weapons are secondary, and attacks with them are made with a –5 penalty to the attack roll, no matter how many there are.

So how do we interpret this for grappling? Well, when applying the concept to grappling, both PCs and monster cannot use secondary weapon attacks. They lose them, but that does not deny either of them using all of their PRIMARY weapon attacks. PCs just happen to base the number of attacks off their BAB, while monsters do not.

SRD 3.5 states:

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

By Attack Your Opponent’s inclusion in the “replaces an attack” group, it means that you can use this action multiple times in the same round. Furthermore, the last statement should be rewritten to clarify that you cannot use secondary weapons while grappling. Currently, it does not support proper interpretation for monsters.

Even the Rake special ability supports my view. It states:

Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

The difference lies in the weapon used (primary or secondary) and not in the # of attacks. Why would it state in Rake that the ‘-4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple’ does not apply? That implies that a creature with multiple attacks with its primary natural weapon should get to take them! Under normal circumstances, the -4 penalty would apply to each of those attacks while grappling. However, when using Rake it clearly states it gets 2 extra claw attacks and the -4 penalty is waived.

To quote Pinotage, I agree with his statement as he was close in his interpretation, but he let BAB confuse him and get in the way. MONSTER DON’T USE BAB. Forget about it. I’ve inserted text in [ ] to highlight the interpretations as I see them.

The description of 'Rake' says that it can 'only attack with one of its natural weapons'. I don't believe that says it only gets one attack. Presumably, if it doesn't want to use a grapple check [with -20 penalty] to damage an opponent with the weapon used to gain the hold, it can [commit to the grapple and] attack with one [or all] of its other [primary] natural weapons [attacks] at -4 as many times as [it has primary attacks remaining].

To summarize:

1. PCs and monsters have two weapon categories: Primary and Secondary.
2. PC’s use BAB to determine how many primary weapon attacks they get in a round, and a secondary weapon only grants one additional attack per round when using the full attack option as a full-round action.
3. Monsters do not use BAB. They simply get a specified number of attacks for each weapon (primary and secondary weapons) when using full attack.
4. When grappling, grapplers can only use primary weapons. PCs get a number of attack as allowed by their BAB, while monsters retain the total number of attacks for their primary weapon as specified by their Full Attack monster entry. This assumes both grapplers are using full-round actions and the full attack option to grapple.

That is my case. I believe I am correct in this, So much so that I have decided to write The Sage on it to make sure I am getting it ‘right.’ I’d write up an example, but this already took me too long to write as it is…..

 

[Hypersmurf]

My question is this: If a monster has 8 tentacles, all of which are its primary natural weapon...

Except that isn't one natural weapon; that's eight natural weapons.

"When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. "

If you cast Magic Fang on a Carrion Crawler, you only enhance one of its tentacles, for example.

Likewise, a Carrion Crawler can only attack with one natural weapon in a grapple - that is, one tentacle. Not eight natural weapons.

-Hyp.

 

[Prism]

That is my case. I believe I am correct in this, So much so that I have decided to write The Sage on it to make sure I am getting it ‘right.’ I’d write up an example, but this already took me too long to write as it is…..

I'd love to hear how the Sage inteprets this confusion. Although by the letter of the law I think I can see how this works out but it just doesn't seem quite right to me and has always been a bit patched together with no good examples.

In response to your points, I think it comes down to whether a monster can or cannot use BAB to gain iterative attacks. You said that monsters never use BAB to gain multiple attacks but this is only the case when they are using natural weapons. Many monster use manufactored weapons to get iterative attacks and a good few use both at the same time. In fact all the standard humaniod races are technically monsters as they appear in MM (human excluded for some reason)

I am suggesting that a grapple attempt is not a natural weapon attack and therefore can use BAB to determine number of attacks. You use your whole body in a grapple and not just 1 particular limb and can do a number of things that don't count as an attack with a natural weapon. For example, I don't see why a carrion crawler should get 8 attempts to escape from a grapple just because it has 8 tenticles. Equally I don't think it should get 8 chances to pin either. I'm obviously using a carrion crawler with its multiple tenticles to prove a point but I figure this is equally valid for other monsters.