Grappling and Pins

[Shalewind]

Pinned creatures are not considered helpless.

I would normally not have a problem with this. But this is what came up the other night:

Four PCs, each with an excellent grappling score grappled a medium-sized monstrous humanoid. They each established a pin and said that the party theif would then Coup de Grace. I plainly told them that grappling creatures are not Helpless and thus are not subject to Coup de Grace.

But they raise an interesting point. Four grown men should be able to completly pin a man-sized opponent to where he is helpless.

Have I missed something in the rules? If not, does anyone else have an answer? -Thanks

 

[Corwin]

Well, since we are in the House Rules board...

Here's one to mull over:

In order to immobilize a conscious creature you must successfully pin them for 1 full round with the equivelant of 2 size catagories larger. This can be accomplished one of two ways.

1) A creature of actually 2 or more sizes larger performs the pin.

2) A number of smaller creatures adding up to at least 2 sizes larger than the target. Use the standard doubling system for this.

So to pin a medium creature for example, you need the following:

- (8) small creatures
- (4) medium-size
- (2) large
- (1) huge or larger

Or any combination thereof.

Once immobilized, they are treated as "helpless" until they successfully break enough pins to remove this condition. The only action they can take are those able to be performed while pinned.

So a huge Giant or Dragon could snatch up a human and then crush them in its hands. Likewise, a single human could snap a cat's neck. A couple of orcs could pin down a halfling for their buddy to dispatch. 8 kobalds could take down a dwarf and finish him off with a knife to the throat. Etc.

What do you think?

 

[Shalewind]

I like it. It seems to work for me. Makes Grappling kinda deadly, but then again, if you are that outnumbered anyway. I think I'll use those. One question, the Dragon example mentioned the Dragon being able to crush the human itself. Was this because it was already larger than the ammount required?

Thanks for the good ideas.

 

[Corwin]

I like it. It seems to work for me. Makes Grappling kinda deadly, but then again, if you are that outnumbered anyway.

Yep. Many believe grappling is already very powerful. So don't just toss this rule into your game lightly. I just came up with it off the top of my head. It isn't tested in the least.

I think I'll use those. One question, the Dragon example mentioned the Dragon being able to crush the human itself. Was this because it was already larger than the ammount required?

Well yeah. If the dragon or giant is at least Huge size, it can do it solo. Just like the human-to-cat example, but on a different scale.

Thanks for the good ideas.

I don't know how "good" it is. But you are welcome.

If you do decide to try it out, come back later and let me (us) know how it goes.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Don't worry about it.

The rogue's sneak attack should kill the opponent fairly quickly anyway.

Geoff.

 

[Munin]

Well yeah. If the dragon or giant is at least Huge size, it can do it solo. Just like the human-to-cat example, but on a different scale.

Obviously you've never tried to 'grapple' a cat IRL!

 

[Corwin]

Obviously you've never tried to 'grapple' a cat IRL!

What?!? Obviously you are joking, right? I don't know about you, but I'm a grown man. I have had to subdue an angry cat on more than one occasion. That's probably why I included that as one of my examples.

Are you just trying to be funny or are you actually serious?

 

[Shalewind]

Update:

Well we tried out the new grappling stuff. As long as the size level stays equal, things work fairly well. The PCs were able to take down a pretty formidable wizard using the grapple Coup de Grace, however, he was unprepared.

The only breakdown (maybe?) was when I threw a huge dragon at them. While the the big guys iterative strikes probably could have minced the party's theif, she was snatched in a fly by and crushed. Pretty amazing.

The PCs all agreed that it was a fair rule. I'm still a little squeemish about killing a PC instantly without a roll of some kind. (Unless planned that is

Any further ideas on the issue? Otherwise I think the rule works fine. Thanks Corwin.

 

[Corlon]

Already powerful!!, i've tried to make it powerful with a grappling monk and stuff, but I could never get grappling very powerful. Theres probably a powerful way to do this, but my PCs have almost never used grappling, they seem to like beating the crap out of the opposition with weapons and fireballs

 

[Corlon]

don't answer that last one, I just started thinking about what you can do with grapple.