Grappling the prone

[Pielorinho]

I have a specific question and a general question: is it easier to grapple a prone opponent than a standing opponent?

I suspect yes. A grapple check is "like a melee attack," and I'm thinking that most modifiers to melee attacks would apply also to grapple checks. When an attacker is prone, she suffers a -4 penalty to attacks; I'm thinking the same penalty would apply to a prone grappler. Thus, if I'm grappling a prone opponent, my grapple check is normal, but theirs is at -4, making it easier for me to win the grapple.

My general question is this: what modifiers apply to grapple checks?

I'm guessing most things affecting melee attacks also affect grapple checks. Moral/luck/insight/circumstance bonuses to attack rolls also apply to grapple checks (EVEN WHEN YOU'RE THE DEFENDER), as do penalties of the same natures.

I'm thinking that enhancement bonuses to natural weapons don't affect grapple checks, however: your greater magic fanged monk doesn't get a bonus on grappling from the spell. My reasoning is a little obscure: under weapon focus, you can choose either (unarmed) or (grapple), suggesting that they're two separate things. Obviously, GMF etc. would affect a monk's grapple damage -- just not the grapple check proper.

Does this sound right to people? I'm probably going to be playing a new character tonight, a grapplehappy monk with Improved Trip, and I was thinking it might be fun to trip someone before grappling them. Think of it like throwing someone on the ground and then squatting on their chest as you pummel them .

Daniel

 

[reapersaurus]

not that it's official, but in seasong's GoD, my weretiger monk isn't getting +4 to grapples from the opponent being prone...

 

[Pielorinho]

not that it's official, but in seasong's GoD, my weretiger monk isn't getting +4 to grapples from the opponent being prone...

Are you tripping them? If not, why are they prone?

What modifiers do you think ought to apply to grapple checks? Bless? Prayer? Dazzled? Frightened? Higher Ground?

Daniel

 

[reapersaurus]

yes, Blaster is tripping them.

I believe just about everything should apply to grapples - it's a form of an attack.
I'm not of the opinion that grappling is a seperate phenomenon, like is occasionally interpreted.
It IS an attack, it just has a slightly different resolution mechanic.

I remember a recent threrad where someone was trying to pervert the English and not have grapple be "an attack". Then Fighting Defensively penalties wouldn't apply to grapple checks, and silly things like that.

To answer your question- Yes to all bonuses you brought up except weapon enhancement bonuses and Higher Ground bonuses.

 

[MadScientist]

I would give the bonus for the touch attack for initiating the grapple, but not for the opposed grapple check(s). Anyone who is an experienced grappler (wrestler, Judoka, etc.) knows that you can grapple quite effectively even while prone. This is also how I would interperet the rules. Grappling is an attack but the opposed check is not an attack roll, and thus does not get a bonus for the opponent being prone.

 

[Norfleet]

I would give the bonus for the touch attack for initiating the grapple, but not for the opposed grapple check(s). Anyone who is an experienced grappler (wrestler, Judoka, etc.) knows that you can grapple quite effectively even while prone. This is also how I would interperet the rules. Grappling is an attack but the opposed check is not an attack roll, and thus does not get a bonus for the opponent being prone.

I agree. Not only can one grapple effectively while prone, it's easier to grapple while prone, since being already down means that you are no longer restricted to grappling with no more than 3 limbs at a time: You can't fall, because you've already done that. However, in order to effectively grapple somebody who is lying on the ground, you must descend to his level. Otherwise, you couldn't reach him anyway. You can still kick him, though, but that's not grappling.

Therefore, there should not be a bonus for grappling a downed opponent, either to initiate a grapple or to continue a grapple. The only occasions this would make sense would be if you were grappling an opponent several size categories larger than you....and that would just be a really stupid idea.

 

[Darklone]

To initiate a grapple is IMHO one of the best methods to fight against a trip expert.

 

[Norfleet]

Unless your trip expert is also a very large grapple expert, anyway.

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, in order to effectively grapple somebody who is lying on the ground, you must descend to his level. Otherwise, you couldn't reach him anyway. You can still kick him, though, but that's not grappling.

You can "descend" without being prone, though.

Opponent flat on his back; attacker kneeling astride his chest. Advantage attacker... and he's not prone. Disadvantage opponent... and he is.

I'd certainly apply prone penalties to opposed grapple checks.

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

What about other bonuses and penalties -- e.g., prayer, bless, inspire courage, etc.?

Daniel