Grappling with a Flaming Sphere, a burning Web & a trapped Brown Bear?

[DrSpunj]

Regarding web/flaming sphere: I would not treat the flaming sphere as being in all 4 squares. It would burn only one square of the web per turn. The sphere is not being wrestled, so I would not have it occupy all the same squares as the bear.

I agree with you that the Flaming Sphere isn't in all 4 squares according to the rules, but disagree that it could only burn one square of Web per turn. That's what would happen if it was left in the square, but a Mage could concentrate with a Move Action to move it up to 30', potentially burning away 6 squares of Webbing as I read both spells.

Back to your other point: the Flaming Sphere only ever occupies one square, and if it lands in any of the 4 squares the Bear occupies the Bear has to make a Reflex save or take damage. However, while the Elf & Bear are Grappling, the Mage can't be sure that the Elf won't get damaged by the Flaming Sphere as well. To reflect that I *think* it's reasonable to give a proportional chance that the Elf comes into contact with the Flaming Sphere. Here proportional is the Elf's 1 square vs 4 squares of "Bear space", so that's 25%. As I said before, if the percentiles came up against the Elf, then he would still get his Reflex save to avoid the effect, just like the Bear did.

I like this because if the Elf was Grappling with a Huge Fiendish Monstrous Centipede, for example, who occupies a 15'/9 square space, the chance would only be 1/9 -> 11%. That makes sense and seems fair to me. YMMV.

Of course, I just realized this probably appeals to me because I yanked the Bull Rush "chance to hit an unintended target" to someone outside a Grapple attacking a grappling target. I picture grapplers really moving around a lot, twisting & turning, and don't like the fact there's no chance to hit an unintended grappling target with a melee attack. The Core rules only outline a random chance for ranged attacks into a grapple, not melee. I think that's an oversight and I've houseruled the 25% chance like happens with AoOs and a Bull Rush, though currently that house rule doesn't proportionally adjust like I mention here. Hmm....

Anyway, if your target is pinned or is the "pinner", this house rule doesn't apply, because your target isn't moving around nearly as much.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

If it wants to switch from one method to the other, it must start a new grapple. The only unanswered question is whether the grappler must end the initial grapple before trying to begin the other type of grapple.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have the Bear end his "Normal" grapple with the Elf and then start over with the "Improved Grab" type on his next successful attack. It *is* a huge advantage for the Bear to be able to switch between the two, but I have to agree with TE and Nail here. It makes sense to me that a Bear, something of great Strength and Large size, can bat an Elf around like a dog playing with a chew toy. Just like a dog gnawing on a chew toy (Normal grapple) can stop, put his paw over the toy (Improved Grab grapple) and then growl & snap at you when you try to grab it, I think the Bear has the same options. BUT, I think there are a couple reasonable restrictions here looking at the rules.

1) The Bear must continue to use the natural attack that started the grapple in all remaining Improved Grab grapple checks. If it has text saying it switches which natural weapon its using for the Improved Grab grapple (like the Giant Praying Mantis does), then that obviously takes precedence.

2) Whichever natural attack is being used in an Improved Grab grapple is still grappling, so regardless of whether the Bear chooses a Standard Action or Full Attack Action, he must make at least one grapple check a round with that natural attack (see #1). Even in an Improved Grab grapple, the Bear must still win an opposed grapple check to free his Claw or Bite attack if he wants to end the grapple. While it's a bit comical to think about, I can see all kinds of scenarios where the Elf may not want to end the Improved Grab grapple, not the least of which is that allows the Bear's now free Claw or Bite attack to go after one of his comrades, and therefore actually resists the Bear's attempt to escape/end the Improved Grab grapple.

So while it is a powerful advantage for the Bear to be able to switch between the two round to round, he's still grappling in some capacity until he wins an opposed grapple check and escapes it. If it's a normal grapple then the whole Bear is grappling, if it's an Improved Grab grapple, then it's just his Claw or Bite, whichever established the grapple from the beginning.

I think after thinking about all of this a bit more, I'll go back and rewrite how that battle *should* have gone, just to see if I've got everything straight. Then people can tell me how I've got it wrong, now!

Thanks.

DrSpunj

Edit: I only beat you by seconds, TE, but I'm glad to see we're on the same page. I'm only hoping it's the right one!

 

[Terry Edwards]

The creature has the option on how to conduct the whole grapple, not the option to handle individual rounds of the grapple differently. If it grapples someone with the -20 penalty, the -20 penalty is there for the entire grapple and the creature is treated as if it is not grappling. If it decides not to take the penalty, it follows normal grapple rules. If it wants to switch from one method to the other, it must start a new grapple. The only unanswered question is whether the grappler must end the initial grapple before trying to begin the other type of grapple.

Further, your version leads to abuse.

Example: Elf attacks bear (initiative 21). Immediately following, the bear grapples the elf on an attack without taking -20(initiative 20). On the elf's turn, it tries to escape, but fails against the bear's huge grapple check. The bear then switches to an improved grab and performs other action. Until the elf's next turn (almost a full round away), the elf is treated as grappled, but the bear is not and the bear never had to win a grapple check by 20. In the hands of a PC druid with a rogue ally, this creates a very easy sneak attack opportunity.

That is a huge (and unfair) advantage for the bear.

Proccessing...

Indeed you are correct per the wording of Improved Grab, but that opens a whole new can of purple worms. With no official rules to cover the situation I have allowed a round by round switch at the Improved Grabber's option (provided Improved Grab was used to start the grapple). Let's say a brown bear uses Improved Grab to start a grapple with an elf and opts to use only the Improved Grab claw (taking -20). It seems odd that the bear would not be able to turn its full attention to the grapple the next round. Must it attack with the other claw first thereby starting another Improved Grab grapple on the elf it is already grappling (thereby treating the elf as grappling multiple opponents) or perhaps join the grapple as described on pg 157 phb? That's just ridiculous and the reason I rule the way I do. In the opposite case where the bear uses Improved grab and then conducts the grapple normally one might say that the bear cannot switch to Improved Grab/claw grappling mode since the elf is grappling every inch of the bear that it can get to. I would rule as I have that the bear can switch because it still has an Improved Grab claw hold on the elf and can swing the lesser creature around without much effort plus the elf can still accomplish the same manuevers as before but with less resistance. In either case the Improved Grabber can move with the grappled opponent and deal damage with a successful grapple check. Huge advantage? You bet it is, that's what Improved Grab is all about. Unfair? Maybe. More logical? Definitely.

Edit. Looks like you posted just before I did DrSpunj and made the same points I did. So sorry about the repeat info.

 

[jgsugden]

I'm just reporting the rules, folks, not preaching them. If you don't like them, feel free to house rule them.

Grappling is a huge problem area in the rules. It is too easy to do for certain creatures and has a devastating effect on many PCs. For balance reasons, it needs to be rewritten.

That being said, I don't find this mechanic too burdensome. I think it'll work just fine. Forcing a creature to do another grapple check when switching something from a claw to a bear hug (or from hug to claw) seems fair to me. If they fail the check, the foe managed to squeeze out during the exchange. That can happen.

Anyways, I think I've passed along all the wisdom I have on the subject. Good luck.

 

[Darklone]

1) What happens? Since the Bear lost, but it was the Bear's turn, I'm fairly confident the Elf is still grappled (you can only escape a grapple on your turn) and that the Elf takes no damage from the Claw attack. Now, since he lost the Grapple check with the -20 penalty, what are the bear's options? Is he limited to using his other Claw and Bite attack against the Elf? Or can he still use them against the Dwarf, but is still considered grappled so loses his Dex vs everybody except the Elf?

If you lose a grapple check on your turn, nothing happens. The bear only grapples with the elf with one paw, so he's not considered grappled.

2) On the Elf's turn, does the Bear have to take the same -20 penalty as the Elf tries to Escape the grapple? Or is that -20 penalty only there for that one special grapple check? Does it matter for later grapple checks in the round if the Bear succeeded at the grapple check on his turn?

Yupp. The bear still only grapples with one claw.

The Wizard then cast Flaming Sphere and rolled it into one of the 4 spaces the Brown Bear occupied (Bear made the Reflex save).

3) Since the Brown Bear and Elf PC were grappling, is the PC actually in just a single square since he's a Medium-sized Elf? Leaving the other 3 squares the Brown Bear occupies as valid targets for the Flaming Sphere? Or do the Elf and Bear "share" all 4 squares here since they're grappling? The Elf was mauled pretty badly, so the Wizard really didn't want to hurt his ally with the Flaming Sphere, but argued the Bear is Large so he should be able to burn the bear and not the Elf.

Right, I see no problem here.

Because of the Flaming Sphere and an animal's natural fear of fire, the Bear won the next opposed Grapple check and used the Move option to drag the Elf 20' away. That's a Standard action according to the PHB.

right

4) What can the Bear do with it's remaining Move Action? An intelligent opponent might be able to do something nifty, but I couldn't come up with anything for the Bear. Any ideas? I would've loved for him to move further away from the fire, but he doesn't have another Standard Action this turn to drag the Elf with him, and since he used a Standard Action to Grapple-Move with the Elf, he didn't have access to a Full Attack Action to make use of his Claws or Bite, right?

No FAA and he could have done nothing with the ME action. During a grapple, you're usually limited in your actions to grapple options only.

The remainder of the round the party took potshots with Xbows, or healed the Dwarf (who needed it). On his next turn the Wizard used his Move action to roll the Flaming Sphere into the Bear's space again (Bear made the Reflex save). He then used a Standard Action to cast Web over the entire area (he wanted to trap the Bear from running away with the Elf, he didn't think about the Flaming Sphere burning some of the Web away). The Bear failed that Reflex save so was immobilized by the Web, the Elf made his save so was now Sickened, Entangled & Grappled but not immobilized. Here's the relevant passage from the Web spell:

5) Does "set the webs alight" mean the first round a Web encounters fire only a 5' square is burned, but the next round any square surrounding that one is burned away, and so on? Does a Web keep burning after being lit? Or do you have to burn each 5' square individually to clear it?

Yupp.

6) Does a large creature with a 10' space take potentially 2d4 fire damage for each of his 4 squares? If yes, does he get a bonus on his Strength or Escape Artist checks if the Web is affecting only 3 of his squares? Only 2? 1?

He takes damage every round he's in one or more of the burning squares, so partially yes.

I ask the latter because the letter of the rules seems to indicate that it's 2d4 for each 5' square, and even a single square of Web can immobilize a Large or bigger creature on a failed save. If so, that makes Web a VERY excellent spell against Large or bigger creatures; they get screwed both ways.

Thanks in advance for any help!

DrSpunj

 

[Kershek]

I agree with you that the Flaming Sphere isn't in all 4 squares according to the rules, but disagree that it could only burn one square of Web per turn. That's what would happen if it was left in the square, but a Mage could concentrate with a Move Action to move it up to 30', potentially burning away 6 squares of Webbing as I read both spells.

You can't burn away 6 squares of webbing just by moving the flaming sphere 30'. The flaming sphere will only do damage to whatever space it sits in after it has moved. Otherwise, it becomes a malleable lightning bolt, doing 2d6 damage to everyone in its path by choice of the wizard.

 

[DrSpunj]

You can't burn away 6 squares of webbing just by moving the flaming sphere 30'. The flaming sphere will only do damage to whatever space it sits in after it has moved. Otherwise, it becomes a malleable lightning bolt, doing 2d6 damage to everyone in its path by choice of the wizard.

I'm sorry, but I think the rules are pretty clear here:

A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes. It moves 30 feet per round. As part of this movement, it can ascend or jump up to 30 feet to strike a target. If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 2d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage. A flaming sphere rolls over barriers less than 4 feet tall. It ignites flammable substances it touches and illuminates the same area as a torch would.

It only does damage to a creature if it stops in its square, but moving it through a Web will leave a burning trail of cleared squares since they are flammable.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

Edit: Forgot quotes are already italicized!

 

[Nail]

Re: Web and Flaming Sphere

DrSpunj's got it right; I really don't see any other way to interpret this.

• The web spell creates *very* flamable web: "...A magic flaming sword can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away cobwebs. Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away 5 square feet in 1 round......"
• The Flaming sphere is, by definition, on fire.
• The flaming sphere can touch more than one "square" per round, as it can move up to 6 squares per round.
• ergo, burnt web

I suppose you could claim the sphere is entangled. Is that your arguement?

 

[Darklone]

Wow... that post above finally showed up? Funny.

I would consider the moving sphere as a burning creature.

 

[Nail]

Wow... that post above finally showed up?

I prefer to think of it as slow, but inexorable.

I would consider the moving sphere as a burning creature.

Problem: it has no stats, as creatures do. What's it's Str? What's it's Escape Artist check? etc?

Easier to say: a movable object. Since it is burning, and the web is flamable, it cannot be entangled by the web.

Now....how about a Flaming Sphere in an Entangle spell? ...Now we're talkin'.....