Grappling with a Flaming Sphere, a burning Web & a trapped Brown Bear?

[Darklone]

I prefer to think of it as slow, but inexorable.

I posted this to this thread when there were no other answers yet... weow

Problem: it has no stats, as creatures do. What's it's Str? What's it's Escape Artist check? etc?

Easier to say: a movable object. Since it is burning, and the web is flamable, it cannot be entangled by the web.

Now....how about a Flaming Sphere in an Entangle spell? ...Now we're talkin'.....

I still wouldn't allow the sphere to burn through more than one space per round... the web burns slowly after all, not too explosive.

Evards burning tentacles? That would be a nice spell

 

[Nail]

This does *not* follow the rules.

The rules for improved grab say: The creature has the option on how to conduct the whole grapple, not the option to handle individual rounds of the grapple differently.

I disagree, as do the core rules.

Or, to paraphrase an otherwise solid poster: "Fixing the grapplers choices at the beginning of the grapple does *not* follow the rules."

The grappling rules are clear: each party in the grapple may choose what to do on their turn each round. The Impr. Grab ability throws a twist in: the grappler can choose to take a -20 penalty on the grapple check. This ability is not an action, it's a modifier. The only assumption we need to make is that the -20 lasts until the grapplers next turn. I think we all agree that's a safe assumption.

It seems self-evident that taking a -20 on your grapple check does not also require a grapple check. That's two checks for the same ability, and that's silly. ...And the rules back that up; the rules do not require the creature to make a grapple check to get the "-20".

I'm just reporting the rules, folks, not preaching them.

 

[Kershek]

I suppose you could claim the sphere is entangled. Is that your arguement?

No, that wasn't my argument. I was assuming that a flaming sphere streaking through squares would not do significant damage to completely clear several 5' squares of webbing. Instead, it needed to end its turn on a webbed sphere to give it time to burn the webs away. I make this assumption based on the fact that it has to end its turn in the same square as a creature in order to do damage to it.

 

[Nail]

I still wouldn't allow the sphere to burn through more than one space per round... the web burns slowly after all, not too explosive.

I would agree with you if the spell description DID NOT say this:"A magic flaming sword can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away cobwebs."

That strongly implies that a damaging fire encounters no resistance.

 

[Nail]

I was assuming that a flaming sphere streaking through squares would not do significant damage to completely clear several 5' squares of webbing.

If you say the sphere must do fire damage to burn through, then you must also say the sphere cannot travel through the web until it has burned through.

No streaking.

(Except at the University of Michigan in April. And then, only in running shoes.)

 

[Nail]

Bump.

BTW, the most interesting part of this problem, for me at least, is the realization that large creatures will suffer 4 x 2d4 damage from a burning web. One 2d4 per square they occupy. Yeowch.

And that Huge Monstrous Centipede? Take 9 x 2d4 buddy, no save.

...all from a second level spell. It's amazing what 2nd level spells will do now-a-days. Why, when I was a kid......

 

[Nail]

...So have the Sor cast web on the White Dragon, then the Wiz follow up with a fireball......<shakes head>....

 

[Kershek]

Obviously, that should be read as 2d4 damage per creature, not square. The exact wording in the spell Web says, "All creatures within flaming webs take 2d4 points of fire damage from the flames."

 

[DrSpunj]

Obviously, that should be read as 2d4 damage per creature, not square. The exact wording in the spell Web says, "All creatures within flaming webs take 2d4 points of fire damage from the flames."

Problem is, that's not what the rules say. If they did say "2d4 per creature", then would you have ALL the Webs in a creature's space be burned away at the same time? That could be quite a few squares if your dealing with a Bear (4 squares) or a Huge Monstrous Centipede (9 squares). Your quote, however, is correct, so a combat could (and pretty much did ) play out like this:

Round 1) Wizard completely (all 4 squares) Webs the Bear who fails his Reflex save (so both entangled and can't move). Fighter uses his Flaming Sword to burn his way to the Bear and burns the Webs in one of the Bear's 4 squares. We're all agreed that only one 5' square is burned away each time fire is brought into a Webbed square, right? Bear takes 2d4 points of damage, right? One 5' square = 2d4 fire damage. Right. Bear "spends 1 round" and unfortunately fails his Strength check (it's likely, he only gets a +8 so has a 55% chance of missing the DC), so remains stuck and can take no further actions that round.

Round 2) Wizard casts Flaming Sphere and rolls it into one of the Bear's 3 remaining Webbed squares. Now, according to Kershek's post, it seems the Bear shouldn't take any further damage. After all, if it was 2d4 per creature the Bear already took some heat last round. Unfortunately, the rules state pretty plainly that the Bear will again take 2d4 damage from the burning Webs this round, even if the beast does manage to make the Reflex save to avoid the Flaming Sphere. The Fighter on his turn uses his Flaming Sword to clear the Webs away from the one of the Bear's 2 remaining Webbed squares doing an additional 2d4 damage. Let's give the Bear a break now and say he makes his Strength check to get loose. Unfortunately that takes "1 round" so he's still a sitting duck for the Wizard and the Fighter since he's spending his action breaking loose and not mauling the Fighter.

Round 3) Assuming the Wizard and Fighter don't kill the Bear on their turns, nor burn that last remaining square of Webbing, the Bear can finally try to move out of the Web.

Actually, that's another couple clarifications I'd appreciate getting on this spell. The text of the Web spell says:

Anyone in the effect’s area when the spell is cast must make a Reflex save. If this save succeeds, the creature is entangled, but not prevented from moving, though moving is more difficult than normal for being entangled (see below). If the save fails, the creature is entangled and can’t move from its space, but can break loose by spending 1 round and making a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 25 Escape Artist check. Once loose (either by making the initial Reflex save or a later Strength check or Escape Artist check), a creature remains entangled, but may move through the web very slowly. Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10.

1st Bolded section: What does "spending 1 round" mean? If a PC is stuck in the Web and says to you (the DM) they're trying to break out using Strength or the Escape Artist check, what do you do? Do you have them roll right then? This lets everyone know they've succeeded or failed. Or do you have them declare their action and have them roll the dice at the beginning of their next turn? The latter is more suspenseful since no one (the PC, allies, enemies, etc.) knows whether the PC is going to be able to break loose and therefore what their potential action choices are.

Since this action takes "1 round" they don't get any other actions (thank goodness they're immobilized in the first place, so we don't have to figure out if they get a 5' step) this turn.

2nd Bolded section: In my example at the top of this post the Bear makes his Strength check in Round 2 and tries to move out of the last remaining Webbed square in his space on Round 3. Given the 2nd Bolded section above, the Bear still has to beat a DC 15 Strength check to move his lumbering butt 5' away, right? And that takes his whole turn again to do so, right?

Wow. I think it's important to realize that any creature who fails that initial Reflex save loses at least 2 rounds of actions just standing there, with no other actions allowed, to break loose and move 5' (which may or may not be enough to move them completely out of the Web. Wow.

Between that and 2d4 per square of fire damage, that's a helluva 2nd level spell.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Kershek]

I suggest reviewing the spell description of entangle to clarify how to break free from the spell effect. It says:

The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement.

To me, this is more clear.

As far as fire damage is concerned, I never stated that fire from different sources wouldn't do extra damage. Neither does the web spell.