Grappling with natural weapons

[Thanee]

Just want to make sure, that I got this right.

When a creature with natural attacks (claw, claw, bite) grapples, it cannot make attacks with all weapons anymore, but attacks are then purely derived from BAB (and obviously done with the primary weapon then (altho it's surely possible to use a secondary weapon instead)), plus any rake attacks.

Right?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Camarath]

I believe that is correct.

 

[AGGEMAM]

I don't. But I've yet to see real evidence for either.

 

[Thanee]

Well, this is the only part I can find to support this.

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

...

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Camarath]

These are the rules as I understand them.

To attack with a natural weapon in a grapple a creature must use the Attack Your Opponent grapple action, unless that creature has Improved Grab in which case that creature may automatically deal the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold with each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds. Which I take to mean that it can use Damage Your Opponent and deal damage as with the natural weapon associated with it's Improved Grab ability instead of as an unarmed strike rather than dealing damage with every successful grapple check such as Draw a Light Weapon, Escape from Grapple, Move or even grapple checks started by it foe.

While grappling some of actions can take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action) and if your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Also while grappling one is limited to making attacks with of one weapon. Thus IMO the number of grapple actions is controled by one's BAB rather than following the normal rules for attacks with natural weapons.

One could assert that one still preforms the Full Attack action while grappling and all of the normal rules apply and that the text which allows multiple actions based on BAB is a simplified reference to the normal means of gaining additional attacks in a Full Attack action. I do not believe that this is the case but I can understand if someone took that point of view. If one is preforming one Full Attack action rather than multiple actions based on BAB then it would make sense for creature with natural weapons to have their normal number of attacks in a Full Attack action based on the number of natural weapons. This would mean that each attack or action taken in place of an attack would be tied to one natural weapon. Which means you would have to exempt natural weapons from the prohabition against attacking with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons or creatures using natural weapons would only be able to get one attack per round because of the combined restrictions of grappling and making a full attack.

The rules on Rake are a fair bit clearer since it clearly gives two additional claw attacks while grappling against a grappled foe. Also the Rake ability states that "normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling" which supports some of my contentions.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Gansk]

Attack with natural weapons

My take on it is this:

If the creature uses the attack at -4 option, it gets to make a full attack with its natural weapons normally. Note this is not a grapple check, but a regular 'to hit' roll against the opponents AC. If the creature hits, lethal damage is dealt based on the natural weapon that hit.

If the creature uses the damage through grapple option, the number of attacks is based on the creature's BAB. If the grapple check is successful, non-lethal damage based on the creature's primary attack is dealt, unless the creature has improved grab. In that case, lethal damage (plus possible constrict damage) is dealt based on the natural weapon used to make the improved grab.

 

[Caliban]

My take on it is this:

If the creature uses the attack at -4 option, it gets to make a full attack with its natural weapons normally.

Except that's not what the rules say.

 

[Gansk]

Except that's not what the rules say.

Ok, so I assume this is your interpretation of what the rules say:

PHB p156 "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these [grappling] actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower attack bonuses."

MM p312 "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

MM p313 "Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling [but the rake ability allows more attacks]."

If this is the basis of your statement, then I have no choice but to agree with you.

 

[Thanee]

MM p312 "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

That's the only part, which goes against it somewhat. But it's probably only meant for normal situations, not grapple.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Gansk]

That's the only part, which goes against it somewhat. But it's probably only meant for normal situations, not grapple.

But the quote from the rake ability says that a monster without rake only gets one natural weapon attack in a grapple.

That fits seamlessly with the quote that monsters using natural weapons do not benefit from a high base attack bonus.

Thus unarmed strikes and light weapons can be used multiple times in a grapple, but natural weapons can be used only once.

If a monster with a high BAB wants to attack multiple times in a round, it can use the "Damage Your Opponent" and make grapple checks with the "equivalent to an unarmed strike". If it has Improved Grab, the natural weapon damage plus possible constrict damage is added to the unarmed strike damage.

I don't see any rules contradicting this interpretation.