Grappling with natural weapons

[Thanee]

Ah, you mean it's simply impossible to use the Attack your Opponent option more than once per turn with natural weapons.

Bye
Thanee

 

[silentspace]

To attack with a natural weapon in a grapple a creature must use the Attack Your Opponent grapple action, unless that creature has Improved Grab in which case that creature may automatically deal the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold with each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds. Which I take to mean that it can use Damage Your Opponent and deal damage as with the natural weapon associated with it's Improved Grab ability instead of as an unarmed strike rather than dealing damage with every successful grapple check such as Draw a Light Weapon, Escape from Grapple, Move or even grapple checks started by it foe.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but I think you may be confused. Improved Grab lets monsters start a grapple for free on a successful hit. It does not give automatic damage similar to Damage Your Opponent without a grapple check. Constrict is what you're thinking of - it gives monsters free damage while grappling. Any creature can use Damage Your Opponent, regardless of whether they have Improved Grab or not.

While grappling some of actions can take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action) and if your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Also while grappling one is limited to making attacks with of one weapon. Thus IMO the number of grapple actions is controled by one's BAB rather than following the normal rules for attacks with natural weapons.

I believe the limitation on attacking with one weapon is for monsters only, not characters. I only say this because I would let a monk character wielding a kama make attacks either unarmed or with his kama as he pleases, as long as he has BAB attacks (can't flurry)

 

[silentspace]

Ah, you mean it's simply impossible to use the Attack your Opponent option more than once per turn with natural weapons.

Bye
Thanee

I think this is another example of the rules being poorly written. Here's my interpretation:

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grappple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action).

So some actions take place of an attack rather than being a standard action or a move action. OK, the part about not being a standard action or a move action is clear. The part about taking place of an "attack" is less clear. What does this mean? Well...

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Also unclear, but without going through the trouble of posting all the examples that support it, I'm sure they mean:

If you have the ability to make multiple attacks during a full-round action due to high BAB, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of these attacks.

In other words, you may not perform a full-round action, but may attempt actions as if making iterative attacks due to high BAB during a full-round action. For example, a combatant with a BAB of +7/+2 may perform two of the listed attacks, at +7 and +2 BAB, respectively.

You can't attack with two weapons while grappling because you can't do a full attack. (I think they mean you can't do TWF attacks)

"Monsters" do not get iterative attacks due to high BAB, hence they may only make one attack during a grapple.

Hope this helps.

 

[Caliban]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but I think you may be confused. Improved Grab lets monsters start a grapple for free on a successful hit. It does not give automatic damage similar to Damage Your Opponent without a grapple check. Constrict is what you're thinking of - it gives monsters free damage while grappling. Any creature can use Damage Your Opponent, regardless of whether they have Improved Grab or not.

Improved Grab lets you do your natural weapon damage (using the weapon that initiated the grapple) with a successful grapple check (for the grapple checks made after the initial one to establish the grapple).

If you don't have Improved Grab, you don't do natural weapon damage with the "Damage Your Opponent" option, you do base unarmed damage for a creature your size, and it's subdual damage. To do natural weapon damage you would have to use the "attack your opponent" option and take the -4 on your attack roll (instead of a grapple check).

 

[Caliban]

"Monsters" do not get iterative attacks due to high BAB, hence they may only make one attack during a grapple.

Hope this helps.

Monster do in fact get interative attacks due to high BAB, when using manufactured weapon. As written, they also get iterative grapple attempts based on their BAB, regardless of their normal number of natural weapons.

It can be argued that this is not what they meant, but it is what they wrote.

 

[Camarath]

I believe the limitation on attacking with one weapon is for monsters only, not characters. I only say this because I would let a monk character wielding a kama make attacks either unarmed or with his kama as he pleases, as long as he has BAB attacks (can't flurry)

The grappling rules state under Attack Your Opponent that "You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.". Whether or not using the Damage Your Opponent action counts as an attack for the purposes of this limitation is unclear.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but I think you may be confused. Improved Grab lets monsters start a grapple for free on a successful hit. It does not give automatic damage similar to Damage Your Opponent without a grapple check. Constrict is what you're thinking of - it gives monsters free damage while grappling. Any creature can use Damage Your Opponent, regardless of whether they have Improved Grab or not.

From SRD under Improved Grab

"A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold."

What I am saying is that is that "each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold" does not mean that any grapple check (regardless of why the check was made) the creature makes automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold but instead that the creature must use use a an action to make a grapple check specifically to deal the damage. In such a way that it is similar to the Damage Your Opponent action (i.e. a grapple check to deal damage) but instead of dealing unarmed strike damage you deal the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

 

[silentspace]

Improved Grab lets you do your natural weapon damage (using the weapon that initiated the grapple) with a successful grapple check (for the grapple checks made after the initial one to establish the grapple).

If you don't have Improved Grab, you don't do natural weapon damage with the "Damage Your Opponent" option, you do base unarmed damage for a creature your size, and it's subdual damage. To do natural weapon damage you would have to use the "attack your opponent" option and take the -4 on your attack roll (instead of a grapple check).

I agree with this, and don't think I said anything otherwise.

Monster do in fact get interative attacks due to high BAB, when using manufactured weapon. As written, they also get iterative grapple attempts based on their BAB, regardless of their normal number of natural weapons.

It can be argued that this is not what they meant, but it is what they wrote.

I also agree with this. I put "monsters" in quotes because... well, I was just too lazy to write the whole thing out. Someone quoted the thing above, so there's no point in repeating it. But since you insist, here goes...

MM p312 "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

"Monsters" do not get iterative attacks due to high BAB, hence they may only make one attack during a grapple.

I meant with natural attacks, sorry.

 

[silentspace]

The grappling rules state under Attack Your Opponent that "You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.". Whether or not using the Damage Your Opponent action counts as an attack for the purposes of this limitation is unclear.

IMO, they didn't need to add the part about attacking with two weapons, since right before it they say "You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling." TWF is not on that list. "Making an attack is a standard action." "When you are grappling... you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action)." I think the intent is as I wrote in a previous post, that you can take these actions in lieu of attacks you can make due to high BAB as if you were making a full attack action. The rules surrounding grappling are very poorly written, and unclear.

What I am saying is that is that "each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold" does not mean that any grapple check (regardless of why the check was made) the creature makes automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold but instead that the creature must use use a an action to make a grapple check specifically to deal the damage. In such a way that it is similar to the Damage Your Opponent action (i.e. a grapple check to deal damage) but instead of dealing unarmed strike damage you deal the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

I agree with this. I wasn't sure that's what you were saying at first.

 

[Thanee]

So, basically, what I wrote first, is right.

Bye
Thanee