Grease spell question

[Hurtoc]

Hello. In the game that I DM, a player has cast Grease on a weapon wielded by an enemy. I let the weapon make the Reflex save, and the weapon's save is much better than the enemy's.

However, the wording of the spell in the PH is potentially ambiguous; is it the item or the creature bearing the item that makes the initial save? If the item (or creature) succeeds the initial save, is there a need to save each round after, or is the grease evaded? Either way, are the subsequent save attempts made by the item or creature?

Here's the Grease spell text involving casting on a weapon from the SRD:

"The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item."

Thanks for your help!

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

IMO, it is the wielder that should make the save.

The way I read it, if you make the initial save, the grease spell doesn't work (ie the weapon is not coated in grease). If the initial save fails, then the weapon is dropped, and each subsequent use of the weapon warrants another save in order to keep the weapon in hand.

AR

 

[Hurtoc]

IMO, it is the wielder that should make the save.

The way I read it, if you make the initial save, the grease spell doesn't work (ie the weapon is not coated in grease). If the initial save fails, then the weapon is dropped, and each subsequent use of the weapon warrants another save in order to keep the weapon in hand.

AR

Thanks for your reply. I actually posted this question on WOTC's boards too, and got a different response. There, the poster said the item gets the initial saving throw and then if that fails, the subsequent saves are made by the creature. I agree with this interpretation because the DMG's Magic Item rules describe that a magic item gets a save when it is the specific target of a spell, which it is in this case. This determines if the grease successfully applies itself to the weapon handle; if the save succeeds, the grease is ineffective or misses. If the save succeeds, now the creature must work to grip the weapon, thus the creature makes the save.

 

[apsuman]

Thanks for your reply. I actually posted this question on WOTC's boards too, and got a different response. There, the poster said the item gets the initial saving throw and then if that fails, the subsequent saves are made by the creature. I agree with this interpretation because the DMG's Magic Item rules describe that a magic item gets a save when it is the specific target of a spell, which it is in this case. This determines if the grease successfully applies itself to the weapon handle; if the save succeeds, the grease is ineffective or misses. If the save succeeds, now the creature must work to grip the weapon, thus the creature makes the save.

I agree with Alamont.

The item would not get a save if it were just sitting there. The only reason it gets a save is if it is being held. Given that it is a reflex save the only way to "reflex" out of the way of the spell is if the user "reflexes".

g!

 

[Hurtoc]

I agree with Alamont.

The item would not get a save if it were just sitting there. The only reason it gets a save is if it is being held. Given that it is a reflex save the only way to "reflex" out of the way of the spell is if the user "reflexes".

g!

I recognize the irony in asking for a rules interpretation and then arguing against what Apsuman and Alamant have said, but looking back at the spell description, either it was written wrong, or you accept the grammatical intention that the Item makes the saving throw. This, with the DMG's statement that Magic Items get a saving throw if a spell targets them, makes me feel giving the item the saving throw works mechanically.

Like many rules, sometimes logic and the game mechanics don't align well. I've heard a lot of people say items getting Reflex saves don't make sense. One thing gained by having the item make the save is that powerful magic weapons are not easily disarmed by a 1st-level spell; consider that Fighters might have poor Reflex saves even at high levels, especially in heavy armor.

 

[MarauderX]

I have always ruled it that the Target gets the save. If the PC targets the weapon, it makes the save. Only 1 save is made initially by the target. If that save is made, the grease spell goes away, as per discussion above. However, if the save is failed and the character holding the item attempts to keep it in her hands, another save needs to be made for doing so at the beginning of each of her turns. The same goes for save to stand in a grease spot, so I think applying it to critters/weapons should be the same.

I usually use the DC of the creature holding the item, as spending the time to look up, find and debate about whether inanimate items should have reflex scores takes way too long in game.

 

[melkoriii]

The Wielder makes the save.

 

[Camarath]

The item would not get a save if it were just sitting there. The only reason it gets a save is if it is being held. Given that it is a reflex save the only way to "reflex" out of the way of the spell is if the user "reflexes".

Actually unattended magic items are allowed to make saves.

DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS
A magic item doesn’t need to make a saving throw unless it is unattended, it is specifically targeted by the effect, or its wielder rolls a natural 1 on his save. Magic items should always get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to them- even against attacks from which a nonmagical item would normally get no chance to save. Magic items use the same saving throw bonus for all saves, no matter what the type (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will). A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + one-half its caster level (round down). The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores.
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.

 

[Camarath]

Normal item saving throw rules.

Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by spells. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).
Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + one-half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.

 

[apsuman]

Normal item saving throw rules.

Camarath, you are talking in sentence fragments.

As I understand the rules:

If the item were non-magical and unattended it would get no save. (Does not apply as the item is being carried.)

If the item were magical and the spell were damaging it would get a saving throw. (Does not apply as Grease is not damaging.)

If the item were attended (worn, carried, etc.) it would get a saving throw of the attender. (Applies, I think.)

So, after the postings of Camarath I am even more convinced that whatever save has to be made it is the character's Reflex save that is used.

Or, am I wrong?


Garrett