Grease spell question

[Camarath]

attended items ONLY get a save if its damageing a Magic item.
Otherwise the wielder is the one who makes the save.

I think that there are two circumstances under which an attended magic item needs to make a save either when its wielder rolls a natural 1 on his save or when it is specifically targeted by an effect. I believe that since the item is specifically targeted by the Grease spell it should get the save not it's wielder.

I do not believe that because the rules that explicitly state that an attended magic item gets a save if it is specifically targeted by an effect are under the heading Damaging Magic Items means that magic items only get a save against potentially damaging effects. The general rules for item saves are under the Smashing an Object heading that does not IMO prevent items from receiving saving throws in situations other than being smashed by a bludgeoning or slashing weapon (a situation that AFAIK does not allow a save).

 

[KarinsDad]

The section on item saving throws in the PHB on page 136 may be in the "Strike An Object" section, but that does not mean that only damaging spells can require an item to make a saving throw. For example, a transmutation spell to shrink an item would not necessarily damage the item. And, there are saving throw (object) listed on a lot of spells that do not damage. Objects can be targeted in multiple different ways and this is non-sequitor to the issue at hand.


There are two types of items that can be in possession of a creature, magical and non-magical.

Magical items (in possession of a creature) that are targets of spells receive the better save of their own, or their possessor.

Non-magical items (in possession of a creature) that are targets of spells receive the save of their possessor.

The item is targeted. It has to make the first saving throw, not the wielder. The spell calls this out and so does the rules on page 136. Yes, it is counter-intuitive to most saves, but that does not make it any less the rule.

 

[Otterscrubber]

I was under the impression that even if an item gets a saving throw, its saves would be the same as the wielder. If this is incorrect (it could be I get lazy about looking these up sometimes) what do you base the object's saving throws on?

 

[Mewness]

Hello all, new to the forum --

I would think that it ought to be the wielder of the weapon who makes the save. The grease isn't harming the weapon at all, but whether or not the wielder manages to hold on to a greasy weapon needs to be determined.

Clearly this isn't what the spell description says; I think the spell description is just plain strange.

 

[FrankTrollman]

All this stuff about normal item rules is fine. But Grease says speciifc things about what happens:

Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell

It doesn't matter whether it is magic or not - an unattended object is always covered in Grease.

while an object wielded or employed by a creature recieves a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect.

The object gets the save.The save, if successful, avoids the effect. It only applies to attended objects.

That's what the spell says. And since it says "See Below" on the saves thing, you follow the spell text rather than the normal rules for saves.

-Frank

 

[Bauglir]

Typically when an attended object gets a save it uses either its own save or the save of the wielder, whichever is better, I think.

Don't have time to go hunting for a rule citation to back this up though

 

[brendan candries]

I wouldn't allow an item save since the spell doesn't alter the item in any way.

It creates a greasy coating on the item, that's all.

Much like glitterdust allows a save to avoid being blinded but not to avoid getting covered by golden particles.

Items don't get saving throws to avoid getting wet if put in water but you could argue about a (magical) weapon's defence against rust.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

As Frank pointed out:

Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect

and contrary to what I usually thought, the item gets the original saving throw, and the wielder has to make the additional saving throws to use the weapon if the initial saving throw was missed.

I was about to ask "what about if I cast the spell at the creature's hand, but the spell only affects objects and surfaces...

Sorry about the initial confusion.

AR

 

[apsuman]

Wow, I was gone for 16 hours and look what happened.

So, I think that Frank hit the nail on the head with the citation from the Grease spell. An unattended magic item would be effected by this spell.

Further, since the SRD citation was under the category of DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS, the clause about magic items always getting a saving throw seems dubious to me as the Grease spell does no damage. Now I might very well be wrong here, my ego is not that big. But here's my logic anyway. If I were to case a hemisphere wall of ice over the sword according to other people the sword with no meand of locomotion gets a reflex save to avoid being trapped. In my mind as the wall of ice does not damage the sword, I would say that it gets no save. Again, my logic is that since there was no damage, there is no save.

Now as to the save from the grease spell, I think that it makes far more sense for the reflex save to be the wielder's save. Now by the book I am wrong in that if it were a very powerful item and the wielder had a really wussy save then the higher save from the magic item (2 + 1/2 the caster level to make) would be the one to use. But then again, if a level 1 fighter (poor reflex save) is wielding a +5 Vorpal sword of death then having a magic item use it's higher save is not that game's core problem.


g!

 

[KarinsDad]

Further, since the SRD citation was under the category of DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS, the clause about magic items always getting a saving throw seems dubious to me as the Grease spell does no damage.

There are a lot of spells which affect items without damaging them. An argument based on the location of the appropriate rule in the book is illogical. There is only one section on item saving throws, so that section applies to all spells in the book that state: Saving Throw: Reflex (Object), etc.

The object makes the save. The rules on page 136 of the PHB (3E) and the spell description of Grease are clear on that.

Now I might very well be wrong here, my ego is not that big. But here's my logic anyway. If I were to case a hemisphere wall of ice over the sword according to other people the sword with no meand of locomotion gets a reflex save to avoid being trapped. In my mind as the wall of ice does not damage the sword, I would say that it gets no save. Again, my logic is that since there was no damage, there is no save.

This is totally off. Unattended items ALWAYS fail their saves. This analogy doesn't illustrate anything with regard to the original question.

Now as to the save from the grease spell, I think that it makes far more sense for the reflex save to be the wielder's save. Now by the book I am wrong in that if it were a very powerful item and the wielder had a really wussy save then the higher save from the magic item (2 + 1/2 the caster level to make) would be the one to use. But then again, if a level 1 fighter (poor reflex save) is wielding a +5 Vorpal sword of death then having a magic item use it's higher save is not that game's core problem.

It might make sense to you that the wielder gets the save, but that is not what the Grease spell states nor what the rules on page 136 state.

How do you justify your position here with regard to the rules (i.e. states rules that indicate that non-damaging spells result in the wielder getting the save instead of the item)? And even if you could find such a rule (which you will not be able to), the Grease spell description still takes precedence.

I realize that this rule is counter intuitive to what we normally do (give PCs and NPCs the save), but there you have it.