Great City Campaign Setting...not 4e...sucks

[carmachu]

And when I say market, I don't mean the supply side, I mean the demand. The sales figures show this. People are going to spend much more 4e stuff then they will OGL stuff. That is why there are going to be many 3 party publishers that will sign the GSL or at least go the no copyright infringement route. There won't be any lack of product supply.

Maybe not. Erik Mona over at Paizo has stated that subscriptions for PATHFINDER have increased weekly since the announcement of 4e and are currently at an all time high.

Market for OGL stuff just as much, if not more than 4e.

Your assertion is still up in the air. Folks in 3rd party may not sign, despite the 4e market, but because they ultimately lose control of their porduct, its on teh whim of WOTC.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Maybe not. Erik Mona over at Paizo has stated that subscriptions for PATHFINDER have increased weekly since the announcement of 4e and are currently at an all time high.

Relative numbers don't mean that much in this sort of discussion, and I don't know that either Paizo or WotC is going to be particularly free with the absolute numbers we need to really effectively argue this.

All we can do in their absence is debate the portents and omens, and whose goose liver trumps someone else's stellar conjunction.

 

[Xyxox]

Relative numbers don't mean that much in this sort of discussion, and I don't know that either Paizo or WotC is going to be particularly free with the absolute numbers we need to really effectively argue this.

All we can do in their absence is debate the portents and omens, and whose goose liver trumps someone else's stellar conjunction.

Well said, and even the portents of the goose liver I'm looking at can be altered by furture entrails.

For example, given the nature of the GSL, I am disinclined to purchase 4E at this time. If my misginvings are proven wrong after October 1, I can always jump on the bandwagon then.

 

[carmachu]

I got my head bitten off here for telling people to snatch it up as fast as they could, since the copies were going to be gone before people knew it.

It's a great, great setting. And I really don't see much of an issue in converting it to other editions, since most of the NPCs in it are unlikely to be duking it out with the players, and the areas with the most combat, like the Dungeon, are left less detailed precisely so DMs can throw in whatever dungeon they like.

I'm going to stick Kobold Hall down near Delver's Square as a 4E trial run for my group later this summer.

I got two copies. One for reading and a signed copy. I almost snagged a third cheap. I knew a good thing when I saw it.

It'll be tougher than you think converting it. The beauty of the book as you know is its competley self conatined and corss referenced to the hilt. You will be doing alot of work.

Actually there are more than a few NPC's you wll be duking it out with. The Cram brothers, the gnolls, blue and teh priestess, SHilikar and more thana few others.

Not saying you cant do it. Anything can be convereted to almost anything, but I think you have more work than you think.

 

[carmachu]

Relative numbers don't mean that much in this sort of discussion, and I don't know that either Paizo or WotC is going to be particularly free with the absolute numbers we need to really effectively argue this.

All we can do in their absence is debate the portents and omens, and whose goose liver trumps someone else's stellar conjunction.

I dont know the numbers. And am taking Erik at his word, as most folks are with Wotc's word on 4e.

But what we do know is....folks are putting their money where their mouth is in regards to OGL stuff. So far, at least with Paizo.

 

[Treebore]

That's a can or worms for the lawyers to play with, and I suspect they will.

Maybe. They use the name and show it is trademarked. It may be just fine. I would have to look up Trademark laws and see how trademarked names are able to be used.

 

[Eosin the Red]

Really? Can you explain this, then?

It's right there on the cover "for use with Fourth Edition Dungeons & Dragons". It is not a GSL product, afaik.

Wrong. Check out the cover (at the bottom) on the new Kingdoms of Kalamar .pdf (which isn't using the GSL).

http://www.kenzerco.com/images/rpg/kalamar/Kalamar_4e.jpg

IIRC, Kenzer doesn't have to play by the GSL rules. WOTC/TSR and they had a dispute some time ago and the dust up left Kenzer with "Officially Licensed Products." At least that is my understanding of why they were allowed to place the D&D logo on 3E Kalamar. As far as I know, Kenzer (still) has a private deal with WOTC. I am sure you can google the details.

 

[BraveSirRobin]

The only 4E products you'll be able to purchase will be put out by WotC or directly approved through WotC via the mechanisms of the GSL. Under 3.x, WotC had no approval process for third party products released under the OGL and very little in the way of an approval process for products released under the d20 license. In other words, WotC will completely drive the direction of all products for 4E via the GSL. This was simply not the case for 3.x, nor will it ever be.

If you're okay with that limitation, then 4E would seem to be a good buy for you. I prefer keeping options open, so 4E is not a good purchase for me, at least at this time.

You contridict this statement below. There are other ways for publishers to produce 4e compatible products without signing the GSL. Also, I am not sure that Wotc has as much direct oversight as you claim it does. From my limited understanding, you sign up and then you have to adhere to some standards but I didn't think they had to "approve" it.

With games, there is very little that can be termed to violate copyright law. Even "mind flayers" is questionable, hence WiotC's movement towards using "Illithid" almost exclusively. Certainly trademarks such as "Forgotten Realms" and "Dragonlance" cannot be violated, but in terms of copyright so long as I don't quote published material verbatim, gaming mechanics cannot be considered to fall under the heading of copyright once a game is made public. I can't present the mechanics in the same manner as WotC, but then again, why would I want to?

Well that is really my point. Anyone that publishes a 4e compatible product, without the GSL, has the same limitations as OGL using their stuff which is to say not very much. The point is that the GSL is not as big of a road block to 3pp as you claim it to be.

Actually, no, you can't. You can produce material that is usable with 4E, but you cannot proclaim it is usable with 4E. That violates trademark, unless you ahve licensed that with WotC which is the purpose of the GSL.

So, I can proclaim to the world that something I produce is usable with the d20 SRD and is OGL. I cannot say the same about material for 4E unless I am producing it under the auspices fo the GSL.

Somebody already beat me to the example of a product that may already do this.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I'm a little more in the know about what the true numbers are due to the companies that I work with, and what I can tell you is that the amount of available OGL work is significantly up from where it has been since the 4E announcement. Said publishers have been doing private little happy dances ever since the public got a look at 4th edition and started deciding how they were going to spend their gaming dollars.

Let's assume for the moment that the majority of the gamers who actively spend money on their games do decide to go to 4E. Let's also assume that a nice small percentage of the buying former 3.5 crowd, say 20% (current estimates indicate that this number is actually as much as 15% higher than this), decides to stick with 3.5 or go to another alternative based on the same system. Those buyers can't get what they want from WotC anymore so they are forced to go elsewhere. The companies providing for the market that still wants 3.5 compatible stuff end up with larger marketshare than they had before simply due to the fact that they no longer have to compete against WotC for those dollars. In the end, WotC has done these publishers a huge favor by getting out of the 3.5 market.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I was also disappointed it with with 3.5 rules in the core book because I think that with settings, more companies should experiment with the Freeport model and then come out with various system books to convert the bones and flesh of the game.

If the whole "work around the GLS" bits work for Goodman and others, it would still then be possible to have such a book out, as well as material for Castles and Crusades, 3.5 OGL/Pathfinder, True 20, etc...