Greater Shadow Evocation and Metamagics

durath

First Post
My PC has a Sorceress for a cohort and she just reached 12th level which means she gets to pick a 6th level spell.

I chose Greater Shadow Evocation. One of the guys I game with is of the opinion that since greater shadow evocation mimics evocations of up to 5th level that I could cast an empowered fireball with the spell. His reasoning is fireball is 3rd, and empower only adds 2 levels to the spell so the greater shadow evocation is still mimicking a 5th level spell.

Personally I don't think this would work. The spell description says you can mimic evocations of up to 5th level, it doesn't say anything about being to apply metamagics to the mimicked spell. I think that if you applied a metamgagic it would be applied to the "greater shadow evocation" not the the spell you were trying to emulate.

What do you all think?
 

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I personally agree, and I apply the same logic to Limited Wish.

If someone wants to cast Magic Missile using Limited Wish, no problem. If they want to cast a Silent Magic Missile using Limited Wish, they need to cast a Silent Limited Wish...

But not everyone agrees :)

-Hyp.
 

My personal take is if they have that metamagic feat already, then I'd allow it. So someone with empower spell could cast an empowered fireball with GSE.
 


I take the middle ground.

Using a metamagic feat on the Shadow spells ups the level of the Shadow spell and can then be applied to emulated spell.

For example, an Empowered Shadow Evocation is a 6th level spell and can mimic any Empowered Evocation spell up to 5th level.

For Limited Wish, I don't require a level adjustment or that the caster have the appropriate metamagic feat. I feel the 300 XP cost is a steep enough penalty.

For example, Limited Wish can emulate any arcane sixth level spell or lower as long as it's not a prohibited school, so an Empowered Cone of Cold (6th) would be fine.

Likewise, a Maximized Cure Moderate Wounds (4th level) is an option, since it's a "4th level spell not from a prohibited school."

Greg
 

I'll take a different middle ground, probably, although I'll need to think about it a little bit more.

There's two basic kinds of metamagic feats.

Type 1 alters the casting of the spell -- silent spell, still spell, eschew materials, and quicken spell.

Type 2 alters the effect of the spell -- extend spell, maximize spell, empower spell, etc.

For Type 1 metamagic, it must be cast on the "parent" spell. If you want to use shadow conjuration to cast a silenced melf's acid arrow, you've got to use the silent spell feat on shadow conjuration itself.

For Type 2 metamagic, it must be cast on the emulated spell. If you want to use shadow conjuration to cast an extended melf's acid arrow, you must use the extended spell feat on the melf's acid arrow spell.

In other words, a twelfth-level caster could not use shadow conjuration to cast an empowered melf's acid arrow: the spell only allows the emulation of a conjuration spell up to third level, and an empowered MAA is fourth level. But she could cast a silenced MAA using shadow conjuration, by having SC take up a fifth-level spell slot.

Daniel
 

I rationalize it like the counterspell rules rationalize it. A fireball is a fireball, whether its maximised or empowered or just joe shmo fireball. One requires a higher level slot, but as far as counterspell goes they are both exactly the same.

So as far as emulating a spell, an empowered fireball is emulated in a similar way to a normal fireball. I would still require the feat to do it, to have knowledge of how to empower, but I don't see why it couldn't be done.
 

IMC we switched to use something almost exactly like Pielorinho's system. It got a bit confusing once we got to splatbook metamagics, since there was a debate on some. Is Twin Spell an effect modifier or a casting modifier? Delay Spell? Chain Spell? Persistent Spell? But, as long as your campaign can come to an agreement on which are which, go nuts.

If you want to treat all of the metamagics the same way, then you get some ridiculous logical situations no matter how you do it.
 

Well, we must remember that the Shadow spells can mimic ANY spell of those levels, not just ones listed in the books. So, while you may not be able to mimic an empowered fireball per se, you could mimic a spell you made up on the spot that is a 5th level 15d6 fireball (which is even better because it will have a higher save DC). This is totally within the rules.

This interpretation works even if your DM doesn't allow metamagics with it. This is a little more problematic with some metamagics than others. And I don't really know how to answer those questions. One one hand, I see no problem with someone casting an empowered fireball with gr. shadow evocation. On the other hand, I think it could be a cheap way to get around the casting time penalty Sorcerers usually suffer when casting such spells. A Wizard doesn't have to prepare which shaodw evocation spell he will cast, though, so I guess fair is fair. If the Wizard suffers no penalty doing so, why should the Sorcerer?

One option that was noted to allow Sorcerers to quicken was to have it built into the spell. Thus he could learn a quickened fireball as a 7th level spell, and cast it without penalty (of course it would always be quickened that way). So, arguing fromt hat point, one could simply mimic the "built in" versions of the spell. This would be grossly unfair though, since they would get the higher save DCs.

All in all, this only proves why I hate those damned Shadow spells!
 

Well, we must remember that the Shadow spells can mimic ANY spell of those levels, not just ones listed in the books. So, while you may not be able to mimic an empowered fireball per se, you could mimic a spell you made up on the spot that is a 5th level 15d6 fireball (which is even better because it will have a higher save DC). This is totally within the rules.

No, you could mimic a spell that you had researched according to the rules for researching a new spell, that might perhaps be a 5th level 15d6 Fireball, depending on whether your DM felt that it was a reasonable spell.

No research, no new spell.

-Hyp.
 

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