Greater Spell Focus: balanced?

[Ravellion]

It is somewhat powerful at low levels, where the extra spells actually matter, but the real problem is the fact that everyone is suddenly a <whooooo!>spellcasting prodigy<aaaaah!>. Quite.

Also you might get whining munckins asking for a warrior prodigy, giving you +2 strength benfits for to hit and damage only

All balanced by being only selectable at level 1 of course

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

Rav

 

[Apok]

I look at it this way; there are plenty of ways for fighter-types to increase their damage capacity and attack bonus, but raising spell DC's is a very difficult proposition. Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus are really the only ways to raise spell DC's. Other than that? Spell Power, which is gained only via a small number of PrC's (Red Wizard, Archmage, and Shadow Adept) and Spellcasting Prodigy. That's it.

Grab a copy of the ELH and take a look at some of the monsters in there. Trust me, I don't begrudge any wizard player trying to increase his spell DC's any way he can, especially at higher levels where DC's under 35 can be conveniently ignored by most.

 

[Xarlen]

I look at it this way; there are plenty of ways for fighter-types to increase their damage capacity and attack bonus, but raising spell DC's is a very difficult proposition. Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus are really the only ways to raise spell DC's. Other than that? Spell Power, which is gained only via a small number of PrC's (Red Wizard, Archmage, and Shadow Adept) and Spellcasting Prodigy. That's it.

Grab a copy of the ELH and take a look at some of the monsters in there. Trust me, I don't begrudge any wizard player trying to increase his spell DC's any way he can, especially at higher levels where DC's under 35 can be conveniently ignored by most.

Exactly. Hell, look at some monsters in the MM. Juvenile White Dragon: Cr 5. Juvenile Red Dragon: Cr 9 +14/+10/+12 Saves: +10/+6/+6. Cornugon, CR10. +10/+8/+9, SR 24.

Fighting some of these creatures is No Fun when not one of your spells either punches their SR, or their saves. And you want to fight a Dragon, Good Luck. Even when your spells are higher level, you is Screwed.

 

[haiiro]

Personally, I don't find GSF to be unbalanced. Even with GSF in Evocation or Necromancy, there will still be: a chance to save; creatures with good saves in REF/WILL/whatever; creatures with SR. It's not that hard to increase saves, and committing to one school with SF and GSF means you've done so at the expense of other schools and abilities. Works for me.

Edit: spelling.

 

[jeffwik]

Personally, I'd rather allow Spellcasting Prodigy instead of Greater Spell Focus, given the choice. +1 DC to all saves isn't as great as +2 to one, player-chosen, school (as if anyone's going to take GSF: Divination). SP also grants a few extra spells per day, but I can handle that.

I wanted to take GSF: Divination, but Forrester wouldn't let me. God, how I hate him.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Point of clarification: Grey elves DO get the Int bonus, and IMO are a better deal than sun elves; -2 Str means nothing to a spellcaster, whereas keeping the +2 to Dex is pretty darn good.

And GSF is perfectly reasonable, IMHO. Fighters can increase their AB through all sorts of means.

May I make a suggestion, BTW? I've found that the really messy thing is letting spellcasters boost their primary ability score through the roof using these non-core spells (fox's cunning, etc.). Why not just leave those spells out of your campaign?

 

[Li Shenron]

I may forget something, but...

Save DC = 10 + spell level + Int/Wis/Cha mod + SF + GSF

whose max is 23 + mod
{max spell level 9, SF+GSF = +4}

ST = d20 + base save + Con/Dex/Wis mod + GF/LR/IW + racial bonus

whose max is (on average d20 result = 10 approx) 24 + mod + racial
{max base save at 20th is +12, appropriate feat +2, racial usually is either +0 or +2}

The above is just an example of a caster which is in fact casting a spell for his SF+GSF school, against a target whose best base save is to be used, so best conditions for both.
Ability mod can be very high and buffed up for both the caster and the target in the same way. Of course, this assumes a target who has good bonus in the right ST, otherwise his max is 20+mod+racial, with a -3 on the comparison.

I doesn't seem to me that GSF is overpowered. On the long term, a spellcaster who repeatedly cast his favorite spell against different foes, of which of course few may have optimal resistance, GSF may give a great advantage (and against specially weak foes may give 100% chance), but it does not break the game.

 

[Ravellion]

Lost a post, not feeling like typing it agian: this is a shortened version.

If you like to kill the BBEG in the first initiave round 80% of the times, that's okay. I prefer a different style of play from the Wizard and his toadies. If you use grey elves, Spellcasting prodigy and greater spell focus, your spell DCs are 4 higher than mine. That is not even counting prestige classes in the FRCS and MoF, which could raise it even more. Still, I have found 12th level wizards (haven't played higher yet) to be plenty powerful enough. I can't imagine how powerful they would be with DCs as much as 6 higher...

Just my opinion of course. Not even completely substantiated by empirical evidence.

Rav

 

[hammymchamham]

Weapon Specialization is core, spell focus is core.

That wasn't the point. The point was its a feat that allows fighters to sudenly deal more damage, which you posted does not exist.

No feats allowed fighters to suddenly do more damage.

 

[Xarlen]

Point of clarification: Grey elves DO get the Int bonus, and IMO are a better deal than sun elves; -2 Str means nothing to a spellcaster, whereas keeping the +2 to Dex is pretty darn good.

Where the hell is the Grey Elf? I looked through the FRCS's Index and I can't find a single mention of Grey Elf. Gray Dwarf, but not elf.
.

May I make a suggestion, BTW? I've found that the really messy thing is letting spellcasters boost their primary ability score through the roof using these non-core spells (fox's cunning, etc.). Why not just leave those spells out of your campaign?

Sure. As long as Bull's strenght doesn't increase damage, or Cat's Grace doesn't increase AC.