Greater Spell Focus: balanced?

[hammymchamham]

Where the hell is the Grey Elf? I looked through the FRCS's Index and I can't find a single mention of Grey Elf. Gray Dwarf, but not elf.

Try Monster Manual for the Grey Elf.

 

[Xarlen]

Try Monster Manual for the Grey Elf.

Huh!

I always thought the elves in the MM were Gray (Moon) elves, the elves in the FRCS were High (Sun) elves, and then there's the Wood (Copper) elves.

Well. That's just BROKEN.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

Originally, my DM didn't like the fact that my Wizard had a Headband o' Intellect and GSF is both Enchantment and Illusion. At level 8 or 9 or so, the Orcs didn't stand a chance, no matter how many levels they had. But now, at 11th level, opposing spellcasters have +14 to their Will saves and well, it just doesn't seem that powerful anymore. Make of that what you will..

 

[Remathilis]

Grey elves are core in the MM. Check the DMG (in the NPC section) for stats. In short, -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +2 int.

GSF is really not as bad as it first appears. Against NPC's it can be rough, but most high level monsters have decent enough saves to shrug off the hit. The problem is stacking feats and bonuses. For example: A halfling fighter with a 20 dex and blooded, thug, and improved initiative feats (all possible in FRCS) can have a +13 bonus to initative! Say goodbye to surprise rounds and flat-footedness.

 

[Forrester]

I wanted to take GSF: Divination, but Forrester wouldn't let me. God, how I hate him.

The fact that I'm a Big Fat Jerk simply cannot be denied. But c'mon -- talk about BROKEN! I can't believe you tried to pull that.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

We at S.H.I.N.Y. feel your pain, jeffwik. I'm sure Forrester is one of those DMs who house-rules Harm. Fear not! There's a place for you in S.H.I.N.Y.

 

[Petrosian]

Ok, so if i can get this right, after spending two feats we have the following...

10th level sor with SF/GSF and a 22 cha after items and such tosses a 10d6 fireball with a ref23 save doing 10d6.

10th level sorcerer with 22 cha and empower spell and SF throws a 10d6x1.5 fireball with a REF21 save.

The former case is one of clear imbalance and is going to cause balance issues in a campaign while the second is Ok and fine?

************************8

IMO, GSf is just fine.

Can a mage focus his feats and advancements and items on minmaxing his DCs? yes indeed. Can this be a potent combo? yes indeed.

But at the same time, on the other hand, he could have been focusing his efforts on empowering and enabling other things too... empower is right in there for blasters, and silent/still is very very heavily useful especially in ambushes, and item creation is a potent tool as well, extend opens many doors, energy sub, and so on.

They system allows you to do many different paths, and each has his plusses and minuses.

A mage with over specialized aspects, focusing on spell saves, should find himself challenged by things that fall outside his narrower specialty. If he has spent two feats making evocation tough, creatures immune to his energy should be trouble. if he has spent time making transforms useful, many undead will render those impotent.

More power in a narrower scope has rarely been a problem for overpowering balance in my games.

 

[Grundle]

Your instincts are right, though -- enemies with a similar amount of HD should probably be able to make saves on rolls other than '20'. Certainly, that's a valid choice to make for your campaign, in which case Greater Spell Focus should probably be tossed. No big loss.

Agreed, but compare apple to apples. IMHO, it would be better to consider similar HD and similar saves. Sure, the brain-dead barbarian might not be able to withstand such a spell, but how about a cleric or wizard?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Originally, my DM didn't like the fact that my Wizard had a Headband o' Intellect and GSF is both Enchantment and Illusion. At level 8 or 9 or so, the Orcs didn't stand a chance, no matter how many levels they had. But now, at 11th level, opposing spellcasters have +14 to their Will saves and well, it just doesn't seem that powerful anymore. Make of that what you will..

Not knowing your stats and the headband I'll make up random mage #5. 18 int start+2levels+4headband=24 int or +7 to dcs,+4 from GSF=+11, cast a 3rd level spell like suggestion and +3 so+14 or a total DC of 24. And someone strong in their will save for level 11 has a +14 and has a 50/50 chance. Somone weaker like a fighter probably has a +4 base will save by then +2 for cloak of resistance maybe, +2 for iron will=+8 and has to roll a 16. Doesn't seem too bad, but vs monsters who won't have iron will, or a cloak of ressitance and the save is roll a 20. That can kinda hurt those giants etc.

And this is where the problem lies there are too many ways to buff your saves. It's fairly easy to get your saves high enough that unless your really outclassed or you really mess up the roll you suceed. so if someone designs a spellcaster to challenge those saves then he just demolishes those who don't focus on saves so much. There is just too much of a variable in possible saves and possible DCs.

And by the way GSF in enchantment and illusion Dang it shoddy powergaming pisses me off. Those are both will saves, it should of been enchantment or illusion and transmutation or necromancy.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

And by the way GSF in enchantment and illusion Dang it shoddy powergaming pisses me off. Those are both will saves, it should of been enchantment or illusion and transmutation or necromancy.

Yeah, but where as my Suggestions work, my fireballs don't pack the punch of someone who's taken Maximize spell. That's why min/maxing isn't so bad... you max one aspect, but minimize another.

Truth is, at higher levels, without GSF, the odds are that Wizards aren't going to overcome spell resistance and have monsters fail saves... you'll be left with non-attack spells which can get boring after a time...