Greater Spell Focus: balanced?

[Apok]

IMO greater spell focus shouldn't really exist as is, it is unbalanced in that it one ups the dc/saves arms-race.

I don't see this whole "dc arms race" thing you are mentioning. At the absolute maximum, not taking into account PrC's or Smackdown! tactics, a human Wizard can have spell DC's of 26 + Spell level in one school by 20th level. This assumes he starts w/ an 18 Int, puts all of his stat boosts into Int, gets a Headband of Intellect +6 and a Book of Int +5 (can't remember the actual name). If he's casting any other spell not from his Focused school, that DC drops to 22 + spell level. This is hardly what I would consider an arms race, especially considering what you'll be fighting at 20th level.

Given that some spells have effects that ignore most of the higher level benefits, i.e. hps, ac, other than saves. This feat empowers these spells whilst the fighters have no comparable feat to counter until epic levels.

You are essentially referring to the Save or Die spells like Finger of Death, Disintegration, Implosion, Flesh to Stone, etc. Granted, these spells become the mainstay of many spellcasters at higher levels, since by that time their damaging spells just aren't cutting it. In this case, the problem lies with the spell and not the GSF feat. Check out WotC's website for some cool guidelines on how to make the "save or die" spells a little less fearsome.

As far as fighters are concerned, IMO they don't need feats like the ones you advocate. They are capable of dishing out more damage than a wizard could ever dream of at high levels. High Strength + Iterative attacks + Feats + PrC abilities + Spells + judicious use of Power Attack is going to let them dish out hundreds (and I'm in no way exaggurating this number, I've seen it firsthand) of points of damage each round.

If GSF exists, there should be feats to better boost weapon spec./focus, iron will and other saves, dodge, imp. init., etc...

Or, GSF should be an epic feat.

There are many such feats printed in various third party materials. Go to your FLGS and check 'em out, I think you'll be pleasantly suprised. GSF doesn't need to be an epic feat, we've already got Epic Spell Focus.

 

[KnowTheToe]

I agree with Rav. I think many of the stackable feats are not broken but askew and I choose not to use them as a player.

If you have greater Spell Focus etc, why not have Greater Iron Will or Greater Reflexes. It would take up two feat slots and would make fighters and other low will save classes and monsters less slaves to wizards. If you add these feats there is balance, but without them I do see a balance issue.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I wouldn't have a problem with a Greater [saving throw category] feat.

I already have fighters IMC scrambling to get good Will saves. They take Iron Will (with the number of feats they have, why not?) and try to get their hands on a Periapt of Wisdom. It's funny when they go after the evil cleric first, and ignore the blackguard!

 

[Xarlen]

Is there anything that says you simply can't take Iron Will twice?

And, for that matter, if your fighters are so scared of spells, then check out T&B. Arcane Defense. Gives +2 saving throws against a certain school. Since most Will saves are Enchantment...

 

[hammymchamham]

Is there anything that says you simply can't take Iron Will twice?

And, for that matter, if your fighters are so scared of spells, then check out T&B. Arcane Defense. Gives +2 saving throws against a certain school. Since most Will saves are Enchantment...

I'm 99% sure you can't take Iron Will twice. And Arcane Defense has a prereq of Spell Focus in a school, a very wasted feat for a fighter

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

Is there anything that says you simply can't take Iron Will twice?

You can in fact take it twice... it's bonuses just don't stack.

From the PHB p. 78

If you have the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Now truth be known I haven't played any adventures above 12th level in 3rd ed, yet.

Originally posted by Apok
I don't see this whole "dc arms race" thing you are mentioning.

The arms race occurs between classed characters, pc's, friends and foe. Noone would want to fall behind in saves relative to the expected dc's otherwise that's it for them.

The spell dc's are the wizards bab, if they can pump 2* why should other classes be restricted to once for their features? If you allow it to be boosted twice, why not more? They are using a feat each time. Why do most feats not allow their number bonuses to be stacked again?

I think the reason in part is that at some point you'll succumb to becoming a 2nd ed. twin longsword chainsaw, unable and unwilling to ever use anything else because there is a huge advantage in using what you have. Otherwise I am unconvinced that spellcasters need another dc boost to remain competitive with their enemies saves, especially as the can choose which save type to attack.

 

[Li Shenron]

Headband of Intellect + Greater Spell Focus

I haven't seen it personally, but from what people say it is quite a deadly combo, isn't it? But which of the 2 makes the combination broken? GSF costs a feat, it is supposed to be worthwhile, and since a PC - except Wiz - usually have 7-8 feats in 20 levels, the value of a feat is high. Headband of Intellect has a market price 4kgp (+2), 16kgp (+4) or 36kgp (+6): given the extreme usefulness to a spellcaster, it has a ridiculously low price.

Now I ask you, for an extra +2 on your spells DC, would you rather spend a feat or 16kgp (and in the latter case have other benefits)?

 

[zorlag]

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I have mixed feelings about this, but if you play FR, you will end up with DC's of high 40's. All those Archmage abilities stack with them so...

I'd let player take this feat, but I'm using those "epic" rulings on certain spells, which limit the power of instant-kills.

Z.

 

[Derren]

Down with the DCs!

GSF alone isn´t very unbalancing, but with an Headband of Intellect, Spellcasting Prodigy, Spell Power and whatever else exist it gets very very bad.

In one game the DM had planned that while archers defend a town from an band of Ogres we will take care of their young red dragon ally. But the Spell-DC 28 Level 10 mage had other plans.
He shadow welled the dragon (works like a lesser Maze), blasted the ogres and did 150 Damage to the reappearing dragon which had to flee (Shadow Well effect).
After the game the player said: I only wanted to try some new spells. I could had simply casted Phantasmal Killer. The dragon couldn´t made the save (Even the Fort!). And he was right.


The problem is how do you prevent DC stacking (as I call it)?

Taking away Stat boosting items? There are to integrated in the system for this and they can be easily emulated by spells.

Spellcasting Prodogy? Small impact but an beginning, but not everyone uses them and the problem is still there

Spell Focus? Is in the core rules, so you will have a harder time to explain why you ban them.

GSF? Comes from an Splatbook and ups the DC more than Prodogy and Spell Focus, so its logical that they are the first to be banned.