Greater Spell Focus: balanced?

[Ravellion]

the problem is the ridiculous DMs that let their players buy +6 headbands of intellect.

Yeah, ridiculous Dms that actually allow players to take craft wondrous item and have 16 days of downtime (for a +4) during adventures. Blast them! PCs shouldn't create items, and vertainly shouldn't be granted downtime. they should go on and on and on and on and on with adventuring, like the duracell bunny, hitting 20th level in 6 months game time.

If you were tongue in cheek, I was. if you weren't, I wasn't either

Rav

 

[IceBear]

Rav, stop putting words in my mouth. I don't consider Wizards weak without this feat. What Apok and myself are saying is that we don't consider Wizard OVERPOWERED and UNBALANCED (like you seem to do) with it. If you disallowed the extra +2 bonus to DC (in one school) that this feat gives, the wizard would just find a way to raise his intelligence by 4 points so he gets the +2 bonus on DC (to ALL schools), the extra skill points AND the bonus to Int based skills. Where's the problem? Do you still think it's with GSF?

You know, if you read any comments on the revised rule books, you would know that the designers came to realize some of the issues with the core rules only AFTER the books were released. So, your argument that because it is or isn't in the core three books makes it balanced or unbalanced doesn't wash with me. They may have felt that the feat was justified and thus added it to the splatbook. I don't know. All I know is that I don't see this feat as being the horrible game ruining monster that you seem to have the vendetta against. You really seem to be a bitter little man, you realize that right? If you don't like something then Rule 0 it away. From the lack of support you're getting on this thread, I think you can see that you're in the minority when it comes to GSF being unbalanced, so take your ranting and raving elsewhere because it's not worth our time.

IceBear

 

[Apok]

Rav, stop putting words in my mouth. I don't consider Wizards weak without this feat. What Apok and myself are saying is that we don't consider Wizard OVERPOWERED and UNBALANCED (like you seem to do) with it. If you disallowed the extra +2 bonus to DC that this feat gives, the wizard would just find a way to raise his intelligence by 4 points so he gets the +2 bonus on DC, the extra skill points AND the bonus to Int based skills. Where's the problem? Do you still think it's with GSF?

You know, if you read any comments on the revised rule books that the designers came to realize some of the issues with the core rules only AFTER the books are realized. So, you're argument that because it is or isn't in the core three books it's balanced or unbalanced. They may have felt that the feat was justified and thus added it to the splatbook. I don't know. All I know is that I don't see this feat as being the horrible game ruining monster that you seem to have the vendetta against. You really seem to be a bitter little man, you realize that right? If you don't like something then Rule 0 it away. From the lack of support you're getting on this thread, I think you can see that you're in the minority when it comes to GSF being unbalanced, so take your ranting and raving elsewhere because it's not worth our time.

IceBear

Ditto.

My official stance on the matter.

 

[Forrester]

As a parting note, if a Wizards DC's are roughtly equivalent in nature to a fighter-type's BAB (I think that was the general consensus) then why doesn't the Wizards Spell DC's increase with level as a function of the class?

They do, ya maroon. The higher level mage you are, the higher level the spells you'll be throwing at your enemies. And the higher level the spell, the tougher the DC.

And Apok, why don't you list the non-dragon creatures that can handle saves of DC30+ without sweating? Actually, back-to-back saves of DC30+, as the caster is inevitably hasted.

I agree with Derren that the problem is exacerbated when you stack all the DC-boosting effects on top of each other. Greater Spell Focus is the easist to get rid of. So there you go.

Icebear and Apok seem to think that because they've posted twenty times each, they're a majority . So you should leave the thread you started. Or something.

Don't worry, Rav . . . I've got your back . . .

 

[IceBear]

He doesn't have to leave. With you and Rav on the thread, my sanity (what little I have ) can't handle it, so I'm leaving (Whooo hoooo!!)

Is it my fault that from the first post Rav is dripping with disgust for GSF when, as even you agree, it's everything compiled together that's causing the problem. It's to that disgust that I'm responding with disdain.

As for the majority thing, just on the first page I count 16 *individuals* as thinking it's fine to three that don't. Sounds like a majority to me.

Edit: There are a few more on page 2 that think it's unbalanced, but more that the whole DC levels are unbalanced than the one feat. Since I don't see tons of PCs with huge ability modifying items, I don't have an issue. Also, I wouldn't think twice about allowing a Greater Iron Will feat. Anyway, this isn't worth my aggravation anymore.

IceBear

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IMO the problem is the monsters. Too many of them have weak defenses (eg AC 19 for a CR 15 creature) or weak saving throws.

But maybe that's just me.

I tend to use groups of creaures (eg each is CR = level -2 or level -4) to keep Hold Monster, etc, from decimating them.

Classed creatures, on the other hand, can afford a Cloak of Resistance and even save-boosting feats.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

GSF won't kill a campaign, indeed our campaign ended for other reasons and there was an enchantress with it.

My beef is really with stacking, there is an inconsistancy with gsf.

Does anyone know the reasons why most feats do not stack? Game balance springs to mind but what is it exactly?

 

[Apok]

They do, ya maroon. The higher level mage you are, the higher level the spells you'll be throwing at your enemies. And the higher level the spell, the tougher the DC.

Obviously, but that's still nothing in comparison with a Fighters attack bonus at higher levels. Okay, so from levels 1-17 a Wizard has a 9 point variation on their DC's. Fighters of 17th level have a +17 to their attack bonus, and this is all the time. Last I heard, Wizards can't cast 9th level spells all day long.

...and it's burgundy, not maroon. Sheesh.

And Apok, why don't you list the non-dragon creatures that can handle saves of DC30+ without sweating? Actually, back-to-back saves of DC30+, as the caster is inevitably hasted.

Okay, I will. All of them.

Advance a monster enough, weather by class or by HD, and its saves will be more than enough to deal with DC 30 spells (and if you aren't advancing monsters by the time your players can cast DC 30 spells, the problem lies with the DM). Then take into account buffing spells that their allies cast on them and the magical items they may have. They ain't just sitting around in some strongbox or treasure horde, they're using 'em.

I agree with Derren that the problem is exacerbated when you stack all the DC-boosting effects on top of each other. Greater Spell Focus is the easist to get rid of. So there you go.

I agree, once you start the stacking then it gets way out of hand, but the easiest thing to get rid of isn't GSF, its the PrC's that provide Spellpower. That's what causes the mind-bogglingly high DC's that so often appear in the various Smackdown! threads. GSF isn't the problem child, here. It offers a +2 DC to one school, one bloody frikkin' school, and that's it.

Icebear and Apok seem to think that because they've posted twenty times each, they're a majority . So you should leave the thread you started. Or something.

Damn right!! We claim this thread by Right of Conquest!

To be serious, I honestly don't get where he's coming from in saying that GSF somehow makes wizards so powerfull that they unbalance the game. I've played in plenty of games with plenty of Wizards and I think all of them had GSF, but none of them were the warmongering ubermunchkins that he implies they should be. Once you hit around 10th level, the Fighters and other heavy-hitters are the Kings of Beatdown, not the spellcasters.

I think we should just Agree to Disagree on this subject, and chalk it up to differing styles of play, since we can't convince you and you can't convince us.

 

[Apok]

IMO the problem is the monsters. Too many of them have weak defenses (eg AC 19 for a CR 15 creature) or weak saving throws.

That's why the MM has rules for Advancing monsters by HD.

 

[Xarlen]

Actually, I played in a game where I was I'd say an 11th level wizard. In a group of all fighters. Boy, did I feel useless. Saves were failed against my spells all of twice, and both times, the DM pulled a Dues Ex Machina and they were right back where they were.

Handing out +4 Headbands of Int isn't easy. I mean, if you have an enemy spellcaster you're wanting to put up against the party With Amazing Saves, you need to boost him up. But then when they slay him, Bam, they get the headband.

And, while wizards can boost their DCs up, not only do Fighters get aid from various spells (As Apok mentioned), but what about Power attack? With all those bonuses from the spells, magical items, magical weapons, etc, he can easily tack on all of his BAB as Damage. Then cleave the next guy. And by higher level, the next guy and then the next.

And, I agree, that saves are not equal. Compare a Paladin and a Monk to any other class. And then you have the Rogue and Monk with evasion (And then improved Evasion). Then the Rogue gets Slippery mind. Now, compare this to the other classes.