Greatest American? (All Over on Page Eight)

[Darth K'Trava]

I truly suggest the History Channel, their website, and a few books (nonfiction and historical fiction) over this thread for a true lesson.

That's why I said a "quickie" lesson.... I occasionally watch the History Channel and can quiz my mother about Civil War stuff and a couple of friends for other periods of history.

Not to mention using google....

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

That's why I said a "quickie" lesson...

After your last post I'm not sure if you really need any lessons.

 

[Darth K'Trava]

After your last post I'm not sure if you really need any lessons.

Everyone still needs history lessons. Even me.. Just 'cause I could put up a few Civil War-related posts.... A friend of mine and I had a history-related conversation that jumped back and forth between World War I, World War II, Ivan the Terrible, Attila the Hun, and a few other things.... and I nearly threw Napoleon into that mix as well.... My history is a smattering of what I can recall from school and the books I've read.

 

[Mark]

He was also a total horn dog and sexual deviant based on the mores of the times.

Greatest American. American.

 

[The_lurkeR]

I'll continue like Mark to support our buddy Ben and ignore the Civil war riff-raff

Ben Franklin:
SCIENCE - Noted 18th Century Scientist
INVENTOR - Stove, lightning rod, bifocals and many others...
MEDICINE - Founded 1st U.S. Hospital
BANKING - Well known for maxims on thrift
AGRICULTURE - Introduced several crops to U.S.
PRINTING - Noted Colonial printer - "Patron Saint of Printing"
ELECTRICAL - Experiments and theories - Kite & Key
INSURANCE - Started 1st insurance company
HEATING - Franklin stove
COOLING - Had three methods of cooling
EDUCATOR - Involved in founding two colleges
OPTOMETRIC - Bifocal glasses
POSTAL - First postmaster
LIBRARIES - Started 1st circulating library
JOURNALISM - Wrote for several early newspapers
PUBLIC SAFETY - Started 1st police department
PUBLIC SAFETY II - Started 1st fire department
RELIGION - Introduced idea of prayer in Congress
MUSIC - Invented musical instrument - glass armonica
GOVERNMENT - Held numerous positions: Clerk, Postmaster, J.P., Alderman, Governor, Ambassador
MILITARY - Colonel in Militia
MASONIC - Grand Master of Pennsylvania
DIPLOMAT - Ambassador to England Minister to France
COMMUNITY SERVICE - Street lighting, paving and cleaning
UNIONS - Started Leather Apron Club
BUSINESSMAN - Owned and operated several businesses
PHILOSOPHER - Started American Philosophical Society
ABOLITIONIST - Started Society to Abolish Slavery
SALESMAN - Expert at marketing and sales
MERCHANT - Operated store as part of printshop
HUMORIST - Considered America's 1st writer of humor
TRAVELER - Traveled extensively throughout U.S.
FORECASTER - Published Poor Richards "Almanack"
FUND RAISER - Originated matching contributions idea
SAILING - Designed "sea anchors"
CARTOONIST - Drew 1st cartoon in an American newspaper
LINGUIST - Studied several languages and designed a phonetic alphabet
CARTOGRAPHER - Mapped the Gulf Stream and Routes for the post office
PHILANTHROPIST - Organized fund raising and contributed to many worthwhile causes
MENTOR - Acted as a counselor and guide to many of his contemporaries

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

I'll continue like Mark to support our buddy Ben and ignore the Civil war riff-raff

Man, I hope you copied that list off of some website... I can’t imagine typing all that. (especially from memory, though I was actually kind of proud of how many I knew already. )

 

[Hand of Evil]

I'll continue like Mark to support our buddy Ben and ignore the Civil war riff-raff

Ben Franklin:

The History Channel had a good be on him and the man was amazing. The Lightling Rod, saved thousand of lifes AND allowed building over three stories to become common!

 

[diaglo]

where is Patrick Henry?

"Give me liberty or give me death"


to me, being the greatest American doesn't necessarily mean right or wrong or even good or bad.

it means taking those things which "should be" and acting on them. standing up for them. and not wavering.

 

[Storm Raven]

Not all Southerners could AFFORD slaves! It was only a small, select few landowners who had the capital to afford having slaves and only the VERY, VERY rich who had more than a small handful. Most that had slaves only had a few field hands and a small house staff. The super-large plantations were the ones who had a whole house staff and dozens if not about a hundred field hands. But the majority of white Southerners were too poor to even afford ONE slave, much less a multitude of them.

True, but most Southerners supported the institution of slavery - those who did not own slaves still signed up in droves to fight for a system that espoused it not merely as a necessary evil, but as a positive good. Many Southerners, even those who did not own slaves, believed in the rightness of slavery, supported laws that kept it in place, and even accepted the doctrine that slavery was divinely mandated. You didn't have to own slaves to believe in the practice, and support it. Even acquiescence in such a practice should be considered a crime.

The economics of the North was vastly different than the South; the North being more industrial which didn't lead to slavery as it was a more complex industry than most were willing to allow a "dumb" slave to do. Whereas the South was mostly agricultural which was much simpler to teach slaves to do than machinery. I don't recall of hearing about slaves doing more than either housework or farm work.

I'd argue that the industrial society of the North stemmed from their rejection of slavery, rather than the rejection of slavery stemmed from the industrial character. Certainly, Massachusetts and the surrounding evirons were poorly suited to slavery from the outset (maritime socities having a hard time maintaining slavery in general), but places like Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Nebraska and so on (even Pennsylvania) could have easily been prime slave holding territory, as they were mostly agricultural strongholds. However, the prevailing religious attitudes of the inhabitants there tended to work against the practice, so it wasn't adopted.

And racism was DEFINITELY everywhere. Not just with the blacks but Indians as well. Which is a pity as we're all the same under the darker skin tone if one gets to know us better!

Yes it was. The Free Soil movement was not about freeing slaves and making them equal, it was about preserving territory for free farmers. However, the North, under Lincoln's direction, took the ciritical step of emancipation, even though many did not want him to do so. Which is really what makes him the greatest american.

 

[Mark]

The History Channel had a good be on him and the man was amazing. The Lightling Rod, saved thousand of lifes AND allowed building over three stories to become common!

Yup. It's unfortunate but I think Ben Franklin is one of those people on the list for whom the downside isn't that you can argue whether or not they were great, nor to question if he was great in comparison to other Americans, but rather if because his contributions were felt so worldwide if he isn't well above being simply the Greatest American and moreso in the running for Greatest World Citizen.

Can a list like that above be compiled for any of the other people in that twenty-five? I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a list half that long for any of the twenty-five.

How many people on that list are considered great because of one or two defining choices that were so clearly the right choices at the time that another peson in their position would have likely made the same choices? Ben Franklin clearly made the right choices most of his life and purposefully put himself in the position to make right choices that effected the public good time after time. There are some aspects of Ben Franklin's greatness where choices were thrust upon him but there are just as many where his greatness isn't simply a matter of circumstance and choice but rather him forging greatness from ideas conjured in his own mind. A multifaceted greatness, if you will.

I wonder how early in their lives each of the twenty-five on the list became "great" and how long they lived with their greatness. For Ben Franklin, it pretty much comes upon him early in his adulthood and continues nearly to the day he dies. Decades of greatness.

On that list of twenty-five, for me, only Thomas Jefferson comes close to being in a league with Ben Franklin. I'd love for someone who voted for Jefferson to add a list to this thread of his accomplishments. I think that if we looked at lists of both of their accomplishments side by side we'd note that the scales were tipped toward Franklin. I think it could also be argued that Ben Franklin, himself, is a big part of what made Jefferson great.

As to flaws, the only one I've seen attributed to Ben Franklin (promiscuity/adulertery?) can also be attributed to Jefferson and even FDR, among others on the list. I think some of the others had flaws, others entirely and some in addition to this one, that go beyond anything you can say about Ben Franklin.

Just a little more to consider...