D&D 5E Grey beard culture question about critical role

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The end of the Old School and the dawn of Story-Focused play:
"
While it might seem highly unlikely to those who have not been involved in fantasy adventure gaming for an extended period of time, after the flush of excitement wears off - perhaps a few months or a year, depending on the intensity of play - some participants will become bored and move to other gaming forms, returning to your campaign only occasionally. Shortly thereafter even your most dedicated players will occasionally find that dungeon levels and wilderness castles grow stale, regardless of subtle differences and unusual challenges. It is possible, however, for you to devise a campaign which will have a very minimal amount of participant attrition and enthusiast ennui, and it is not particularly difficult to do so.

As has been mentioned already, the game must be neither too difficult to survive nor so easy as to offer little excitement or challenge. There must always be something desirable to gain, something important to lose, and the chance of having either happen. Furthermore, there must be some purpose to it all. There must be some backdrop against which adventures are carried out, and no matter how tenuous the strands, some web which connects the evil and good, the opposing powers, the rival states and various peoples. This need not be evident at first, but as play continues, hints should be given to players, and their characters should become involved in the interaction and struggle between these vaster entities. Thus, characters begin as less than pawns, but as they progress in expertise, each eventually realizes that he or she is a meaningful, if lowly, piece in the cosmic game being conducted. When this occurs, players then have a dual purpose to their play, for not only will their player characters and henchmen gain levels of experience, but their actions have meaning above and beyond that of personal aggrandizement."


-- Dungeon Master's Guide, Gary Gygax, 1979
While I disagree that this is the end of "old school" and the dawn of anything other than the official dnd core books explicitly encouraging narrative cohesion in play, this is probably the best advice I've ever seen quote from Gygax.
 

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Guest 7034872

Guest
The idea that you can reliably point out when they're "pretending" to be excited "for the camera".
Oh, I see. Well, that's entirely possible.

What I looked for were moments when it seemed clear to me they were not acting (it's a lot easier to catch the genuine smiles, frowns, excited eyes, and teary moments than to catch well-faked ones, especially when dealing with professional actors who just love them some juicy character studies). I definitely found a bunch of those. (There was a moment in Campaign 2 when Mercer sent something to Ray over her cell phone and her emotional agitation, which had nothing to do with the game, was immediately evident and very sharp; the entire crew's reaction to Pumat-Sol was unequivocal; Bailey's reaction to her character's death toward the end of Campaign 2 was unequivocal; etc.) Then I went back and compared them to the rest of each episode, and it seemed pretty clear to me when someone like Travis or Laura was actually open-mouthed surprised by something and when they were doing what I'd call some really good acting work.

Still, it certainly may be that I misread their postures and expressions. Because I'm in academia, I'm pretty good at catching a B.S.er, but in no way perfect.
 

Celebrim

Legend
the interchange with merchants is not not something I'm accustomed to - this seems to be a big part of the experience

I'm not a huge fan of shopping but it can be valuable time. This sort of play is what I call "low melodrama" play and it's about slice of life, character development, and chances to develop relationships between PCs and and between PCs and NPCs to get payoffs later on. I think the secret here is not to focus on the shopping and whether or not as a DM I do focus on the shopping or encourage players to handwave through it depends on whether or not I think there is a bigger goal than just getting tools to overcome challenges.

A lot of players can't lean into low melodrama. It's one of the rarer skills and rarer aesthetics of play, but CR does it really well. My advice to you as a player or GM is to think about what you want to accomplish in a scene at a meta level and figure out a way to start that using the GM as a sounding board and if possible bringing other PCs into the scene.

I'll give you an example of a low melodrama payoff in one of my games to show why I don't just ignore it as a process of play. In one campaign a PC priest had been charged to spread the cult into a new city. There was no temple in the city and he was living in a small apartment near the temple district where a lot of the other minor figures in the religious life of the city dwelled. And I made a point of introducing his neighbors - a seamstress that repaired and sowed ceremonial robes, one of the other PCs who was a lay brother at temple of the goddess of beauty who worked basically as a stagehand, and family that were undertakers responsible for burying the dead and assisting the priests so that you wouldn't get nasty accidental undead (or at least, that they'd stay buried if you did). We spent just a little time between adventures where he'd talk with his neighbors.

What he didn't know is that the neighbor who was an undertaker was actually the BBEG that they had spent the first two years of the campaign real time chasing and trying to discover. When they figured that out, pay off.

So instead of thinking of it as a shopping expedition, think of it as time you as PC are allowed to create exposition. Talk to an NPC about who your character is. Use that get to know the NPC time to define your character, bring up your backstory and create opportunity for the DM to get you involved in something. If the DM really is good, then he's going to recognize when the pacing is getting too slow and move things along.

the depth-of-character is really impressive, but again, I'm simply not accustomed to it - the group is "really in character" at the table

This is hard. And as used to doing it as a GM as I am, leaning into it and staying in character as a player is still a skill I have to cultivate. In fact, because I've been GMing so long, when I play I feel really rusty as a player and "out of shape" and like I'm not as good of a player as I used to be, which is disheartening and only makes it harder to play well.

But you can tell the skill of a group of players by how much interplay they do with each other in character. And I'm sincere about that, in that groups that are usually good at that are also usually really good at tactical problem solving, puzzle solving, and everything else because you don't cultivate that hardest of skills without doing a pretty good job of also cultivating the easier ones along the way. Everyone has different strengths and maybe you'll never be a great actor, but if you can throw out RP and entertain other people at the table, you are probably a pretty good play all-around.

[*]the killing move, "how do you want to do this" is something new to me

There is a proposition loop in gaming that runs something like this:

a) Propose to do something to change the game fiction.
b) If that something is doubtful, test your fortune.
c) Narrate how your success or failure altered the game fiction.
d) Repeat.

Steps 'a' and 'c' allow someone at the table to narrate what will happen or what has happened. The more skilled the player, the more they can partake in that narration. Most novices leave it up to the GM, and it can be difficult in some systems to delegate 'c' fully to a player because the player has limited information. What your GM is doing is trying to encourage you to take more control of the narrative, and having dropped a foe is a great time to do this because it's a moment when you have complete information. You know that the foe just died so you know the parameters you are allowed to narrate. You get a moment to narrate your awesomeness and add to the story. Essentially you get to wear the GM hat for a moment and tell the group what happened. Mercer doesn't always do that, and maybe your GM doesn't either, but it's cool thing. And as a GM, I like it when players can lean into that sort of thing because a lot of the times I feel uncomfortable as a GM telling a player what they do. So like when you do have full information, go ahead and narrate your success or failure and don't make the GM decide what your character does during their moment of success or failure. If you fall down the stairs, say how you do it. If you get the killing blow, say how you do that too.

the mechanics of the game seem to be less important than the story of the game

They always were. And the reasons for that are straight-foward. First, the mechanics exist for the sake of the story. And secondly, the mechanics are never complete and so you always have to bend them to cover situations that can come up outside the clear cut rules. You should never feel confined to making only rules propositions. It may be true that your character can't be awesome at everything - there is often a problem where the rule of cool gets misapplied to mean you can succeed at everything - but lean into whatever heroic things your character can do.
 

I don’t understand. It’s a show. They sometimes spend an episode in downtime. I can’t even fathom what is unusual about it, much less deserving of this reaction.

I tear my hair out during shopping sessions that I'm in, with stakes that theoretically matter to me. Watching other people try to turn the most boring part of any RPG (imo) into something entertaining? Like I said, please no. Hell, I don't even really like systems with detailed inventories anymore.
 

Shiroiken

Legend
I've been playing D&D since the red box. I am now 52 and playing with a group who is heavily influenced by critical role. I've only watched snippets of critical role, but I'm happy it has brought younger folks to the table.

Any other long time players have any advice for adjusting into critical role dialect a bit better?
Based on your age and starting edition, you're used to the RPG emphasis being on game (same as me). Gaming styles have changed a lot over the decades, and the current emphasis is on role playing. CR takes this pretty far, with the mechanics taking a back seat to to the story if necessary. My suggestions:

  • Relax. The DM obviously knows what he's doing and everyone's having a great time. Don't worry about "fitting in."
  • Focus on who your character is. Think about their goals and motivations, and share them with the others.
  • Think about who the other character's are when interacting with them, because that persona is what's important to the other players.
  • Game play is going to be a lot slower than you're used to, so try not to get frustrated with it.
    • This is actually my issue. I really enjoy RP, but I struggle when it takes away from the adventure.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
It's like the language / cadence. Or maybe the things they "expect D&D to be". A few examples:

  1. the killing move, "how do you want to do this" is something new to me
do you mean "the blow that will bring down the opponent?"

Because by 5e rules, you can either kill or knock out your opponent. The GM asking is good GMing.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I tear my hair out during shopping sessions that I'm in, with stakes that theoretically matter to me. Watching other people try to turn the most boring part of any RPG (imo) into something entertaining? Like I said, please no. Hell, I don't even really like systems with detailed inventories anymore.
What I’m curious about is whether an episode of Buffy the vampire slayer or Supernatural or whatever that was just the heroes interacting socially (which is 99% of shopping sessions, otherwise they’d be 5 minutes with no in character speaking) with side characters would get the same reaction as the same amount of time spent on that in a show that happens to involve playing a TTRPG as part of the framework?
 

Reynard

Legend
What I’m curious about is whether an episode of Buffy the vampire slayer or Supernatural or whatever that was just the heroes interacting socially (which is 99% of shopping sessions, otherwise they’d be 5 minutes with no in character speaking) with side characters would get the same reaction as the same amount of time spent on that in a show that happens to involve playing a TTRPG as part of the framework?
I would wager you would be hard pressed to find an example of that. Even the slice of life Buffy episodes included cuts to (low stakes) fight scenes. When X-Files went weird, it did it by changing tone and context, not NOT doing X-Files.

That said, CR and other streams are inherently different forms of entertainment and don't have to follow the same rules. But I think it is perfectly reasonable for someone to balk at an all shopping episode.
 

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