D&D General Greyhawk and "Low Magic" : Why Low Magic is in the Eyes of Beholder

[Cadence]

If we are saying Middle Earth is low fantasy, I can get behind the argument that GH is too. But I really don't think many of us think it is, do we?

Aren't magic level and high vs. low fantasy two different different things? Is a big part of high fantasy it's epic nature with big stakes. High fantasy seems to often be high magic, but can't you have one without the other?

Edit: Cook's Garrett files seem high magic but the crime noire setting doesn't feel high fantasy at all. Lord of the Rings seems lower Magic, but much higher stakes.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The amount of monsters is also probably equal (or even less).

A distinctive feature of D&D compared to most other fantasy is the stupendously large variety of monsters. In the 70s and 80s I think only Piers Anthony's Xanth and the Marvel/DC universes were comparable.

The 1983 Greyhawk boxed set uses not only all the Monster Manual monsters in its encounter tables but a number from the Fiend Folio too, such as norkers, xvarts, flinds, quaggoths, ogrillons, gibberlings, bullywugs, firenewts, jermlaine, meenlocks, osquips, and pernicons.

 

[Mort]

Well, there is the slight issue that of the nine enumerated settings, there has only been a "Campaign Setting Book" released for ... one of them.

Two if you're into SCAG.

So I don't think that's really here or there, is it? It's squishy language that means anything, and there is no extrinsic evidence backing it up.

Ghosts of Saltmarsh, while a collection of adventures is still set in Greyhawk (by default). It has a nice overview of the city itself and expressly discusses magic item availability etc. Characters can procure common items for 75gp and can (in theory) even get legendary items (though where a low level character gets 50,000 is beyond me). Regardless in a town of 5,000 characters have full access to magic.

Edit: (Ok looking at it closer items from DMG tables G and F are available - but that's still a lot of high power stuff!)

Whether you agree that this should be so or not, this is how the writers and designers have chosen to portray the setting.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Whether you agree that this should be so or not, this is how the writers and designers have chosen to portray the setting.

If it didn't open the DM's Guild, it not only isn't a campaign setting book, I can't be bothered to consider it as a portrayal of the setting.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

A distinctive feature of D&D compared to most other fantasy is the stupendously large variety of monsters. In the 70s and 80s I think only Piers Anthony's Xanth and the Marvel/DC universes were comparable.

The 1983 Greyhawk boxed set uses not only all the Monster Manual monsters in its encounter tables but a number from the Fiend Folio too, such as norkers, xvarts, flinds, quaggoths, ogrillons, gibberlings, bullywugs, firenewts, jermlaine, meenlocks, osquips, and pernicons.

I meant more of a "If you go out into the woods, what's the likelihood of you meeting a monster?" rather than "how many different types of monsters does each setting have?"

Still, I think you're more likely to bump into a monster in a typical Greyhawk forest than a Middle Earth one. There is also definitely more variation in monster types.

 

[Mort]

If it didn't open the DM's Guild, it not only isn't a campaign setting book, I can't be bothered to consider it as a portrayal of the setting.

So an official WoTC supplement set in Keoland, describes the area, the history, describes the Scarlet Brotherhood and its involvement in the area and even mentions (briefly) how it ties into the rest of Greyhawk - has been released. But that doesn't count as a portrayal of the setting as WoTC sees it?

I get your gripe that they didn't open it up to DM's Guild expansion - but it's still a clear example of how WoTC sees the setting.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Still, I think you're more likely to bump into a monster in a typical Greyhawk forest than a Middle Earth one.

Definitely. There can't be more than around two dozen 'random' encounters in the entirety of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings combined. By the rules in the 1e DMG pg 47 there can be as many as six in one day in the wilderness, though one every 1-3 days is more likely. (1 in 10 chance, checked 2-6 times per day depending on terrain).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

So an official WoTC supplement set in Keoland, describes the area, the history, describes the Scarlet Brotherhood and its involvement in the area and even mentions (briefly) how it ties into the rest of Greyhawk - has been released. But that doesn't count as a portrayal of the setting as WoTC sees it?

Maybe. We will find out if and when they do have an official campaign setting, and/or open it on the DM's Guild. If they were going to treat it as some sort of "This is the word on Greyhawk," then they sure did bury the lede ... well, they shot the lede, and then buried it, and then burned down the forest so no one could get wood to make a shovel, and then salted the earth so no one could grow trees to get wood to make a shovel.

You get the idea.

 

[Helldritch]

So an official WoTC supplement set in Keoland, describes the area, the history, describes the Scarlet Brotherhood and its involvement in the area and even mentions (briefly) how it ties into the rest of Greyhawk - has been released. But that doesn't count as a portrayal of the setting as WoTC sees it?

I get your gripe that they didn't open it up to DM's Guild expansion - but it's still a clear example of how WoTC sees the setting.

It is a start. A divergent one from the original but still a start. It is not much either and going all the way to full setting update would require a lot more than just the small sample. In addition check the trend on Saltmarsh. The map can't justify 5000 souls. It is too small. They should have made the town way bigger than it is to make it believable.

But again, it is a start...

We obviously want more. The tiny bit shown is clearly not enough to adequately judge but even if it is not clearly as I would like it; I would buy the updated setting in the blink of an eye. Maybe even two copies...

 

[Mort]

It is a start. A divergent one from the original but still a start. It is not much either and going all the way to full setting update would require a lot more than just the small sample. In addition check the trend on Saltmarsh. The map can't justify 5000 souls. It is too small. They should have made the town way bigger than it is to make it believable.

But again, it is a start...

We obviously want more. The tiny bit shown is clearly not enough to adequately judge but even if it is not clearly as I would like it; I would buy the updated setting in the blink of an eye. Maybe even two copies...

So this may not be the right thread for this question, but it's the one I'm quoting in - and can always be expanded later.

You've clearly spent a lot of time with Greyhawk. Know it, know what you like (and what you don't) probably have extensive notes on what you have run and what you'd like to run - with backup from your favorite iteration of Greyhawk as presented.

Other then a sense of completeness that they've officially put Greyhawk inot 5e (and, sure, I understand that) - what could a Greyhawk worldbook actually offer you?

I ask that, because if they'd release a 5e Greyhawk worldbook, I'd buy it, but I'm not sure what it would actually offer for me that I don't already have.