Greyhawk Elevator Pitch?

[Shiroiken]

That idea should die in a fire.

Oh that I have but 1 XP to give...

 

[Haffrung]

As distinct from a more bog-standard fantasy setting like the Realm:

* Greyhawk features more shades of grey. Most societies and factions are neither strongly good or strongly evil. And even the 'good' kingdoms tend to be wracked with political factionalism and scheming. Good-aligned PCs cannot should not expect a cheerful welcome in the communities they visit.

* Its cities are not culturally advanced and peaceful the way a place like Waterdeep is. They're Neutral, sprawling, and fuelled by greed. Thieves' guilds are common, religious followers are often at odds with one another, knightly orders vie for supremacy, and wizards often have their own inscrutable aims rather than working for the good of the kingdom. This is a much more sword and sorcery approach.

* Greyhawk is more genuinely medieval than a lot of fantasy settings. Aristocrats behave in an aristocratic fashion, and the hierarchies from kings through barons through knights and tradespeople are often important. Your station in life depends much on birth. In that sense is will feel more like Westeros than the Realms to contemporary gamers.

 

[David Howery]

GH's 'do it yourself' design isn't limited to just the Flanaess… it extends to the whole world... especially for those of us who started gaming when the Folio was around. Want a counterpart to Africa? Do it yourself. Native America? India? The same. I ended up doing a lot of that way back in the day. IIRC, EGG did eventually show us a map of the entire world of Oerth but I found it not all that satisfying...

 

[gyor]

As distinct from a more bog-standard fantasy setting like the Realm:

* Greyhawk features more shades of grey. Most societies and factions are neither strongly good or strongly evil. And even the 'good' kingdoms tend to be wracked with political factionalism and scheming. Good-aligned PCs cannot should not expect a cheerful welcome in the communities they visit.

* Its cities are not culturally advanced and peaceful the way a place like Waterdeep is. They're Neutral, sprawling, and fuelled by greed. Thieves' guilds are common, religious followers are often at odds with one another, knightly orders vie for supremacy, and wizards often have their own inscrutable aims rather than working for the good of the kingdom. This is a much more sword and sorcery approach.

* Greyhawk is more genuinely medieval than a lot of fantasy settings. Aristocrats behave in an aristocratic fashion, and the hierarchies from kings through barons through knights and tradespeople are often important. Your station in life depends much on birth. In that sense is will feel more like Westeros than the Realms to contemporary gamers.

Thieves guilds are almost certain in every FR city.

 

[gyor]

I'm new to the forum so don't judge me too harshly, but here's my impression of what is compelling about Greyhawk compared to other settings...

Forgotten Realms is the default setting partly because it's the place where things never truly get screwed up beyond repair. Yes Tiamat almost returns and Acerarak almost creates a Death God, but the BBEGs are always foiled, peace returns to the Sword Coast, all thanks to our intrepid heroes (and the lore literally has some strong as hell good characters like Elminster and Drizzt played up). That's a pretty good setting for it's own uses, especially as an introduction for new players.

But Greyhawk isn't that. I won't say it's truly as grimdark as Warhammer Fantasy (where everything is on the verge of total annihilation) or Dark Sun (where everything is already screwed up beyond repair), but it is in this zone where there are good guys, but there are way more bad guys, and even the good guys often make morally dubious decisions to survive. In that way, it feels a lot more real than the "Everything will work out" of FR and the "We are already totally screwed" of Dark Sun.

And in that way, it makes the antagonists (Iuz, Yggwilv, Kyuss, Vecna, and Rary) way more interesting because they linger between "can win, but can also lose." The villains in FR never truly feel threatening because you feel someone's going to beat them. The villains in Dark Sun are threatening but have mostly already won. The villains in Greyhawk haven't yet won, but it feels like they can. I haven't watched Critical Role but that to me is a big reason why Vecna is one of their BBEG.

Anyway that's my pitch. Feels more realistic, feels more threatening, and there's a lot of room for customization of setting and character.

Except villians in FR often win. Tymanther lost most of it's territory to Gilgeam, Szazz Tam rules one of the most powerful nations in the world, and he wins most of his battles, only really losing the world ending ones. Set and Sebek are back ruling Mulhorand with their family.

Cyric was successful in killing Mysteria and blowing up the realms.

Dark Elf cities thrive in their Chaos and dominate much of the underdark.

The Zhentarium is rebuilding and becoming a major power again. FR has more powerful evil Gods then most settings have Gods period.

Thieves Guild thrive in many cities. Asmodeus managed to stay a God in the face of horrifying adversity.

 

[Urriak]

Except villians in FR often win. Tymanther lost most of it's territory to Gilgeam, Szazz Tam rules one of the most powerful nations in the world, and he wins most of his battles, only really losing the world ending ones. Set and Sebek are back ruling Mulhorand with their family.

Cyric was successful in killing Mysteria and blowing up the realms.

Dark Elf cities thrive in their Chaos and dominate much of the underdark.

The Zhentarium is rebuilding and becoming a major power again. FR has more powerful evil Gods then most settings have Gods period.

Thieves Guild thrive in many cities. Asmodeus managed to stay a God in the face of horrifying adversity.

Sorry, I really meant for the 5e interpretation of 5e that is so heavily focused on the Sword Coast. In this version the Zhentarim and Red Wizards feel less like actual threats and more like Saturday-morning cartoon villains, because they’re involved in almost everything but never actually gain anything. I’ve never felt as if Thay or the Zhentarim are about to unleash some master plan to rule the world.

To be clear I’m not bashing FR, I’m just pointing out how in 5e it seems to be deliberately framed like a collection of good realms, which intermittently face off against the newest evil. I think that’s great and there’s certainly room in FR for other stories too.

My point is that if you’re hoping to create a campaign where the choices are meant to be more dubious, where the PCs are pushed to compromise their beliefs to take on the very real danger (and no one bigger and better than them is going to bail them out) Greyhawk is the better fit.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Except villians in FR often win. Tymanther lost most of it's territory to Gilgeam, Szazz Tam rules one of the most powerful nations in the world, and he wins most of his battles, only really losing the world ending ones. Set and Sebek are back ruling Mulhorand with their family.

Cyric was successful in killing Mysteria and blowing up the realms.

Dark Elf cities thrive in their Chaos and dominate much of the underdark.

The Zhentarium is rebuilding and becoming a major power again. FR has more powerful evil Gods then most settings have Gods period.

Thieves Guild thrive in many cities. Asmodeus managed to stay a God in the face of horrifying adversity.

I think you misunderstanding what was said. While there are some holdouts like Tam. The vast majority of threats the Realms and most D&D settings face is evil rising up from the underground. (Both metaphorically and literally.) The status good is normally the good guys are dominant and everything in the parts of the world being covered is fairly peaceful, until an evil threat rises up to threaten it, before being defeated by heroes, unless it's some big event, but even then they don't accomplish all of their goals and have to go back to plotting after. This is how it is in many settings. This is not a bad thing I might as well add.

In Greyhawk evil is a much stronger force there than in most settings. Evil forces control roughly half of the map. Not counting the rising evils like in FR and other subversive elements in the Kingdoms of good and neutrality.

This is something that I feel Greyhawk has going for it. Evil is a much stronger force there than in many other settings. The Great Kingdom, The Empire of Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood, such large dominant evil forces don't really exist in FR. Thay is the closest there, but it's still just one Kingdom of the few on Faerun.

To elaborate on the Great Kingdom, Empire of Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood as they are the most notable large evil factions in Greyhawk though not the only ones on the map.

The Great Kingdom was formerly the Dominant Power on the continent, being larger and more powerful than any other at the time. However the Kingdom eventually descended into infighting causing it's territory to shrink and break off into lesser states over time. It's still however the largest and one of the powerful forces on the continent despite it's decay and struggles between it's internal powers. The current king is mad and cruel and the official religion of the Great Kingdom worships Hextor the evil god of war resulting in the Kingdom being very aggressive.

The Scarlet Brotherhood is pretty easy to explain, they are an order of Monk Nazis. They believe in the racial purity of the Suel race and that all other breeds of humanity and all other humanoids are innately inferior races, who should be thankful to be allowed to bow down before the objective superiority of the suel. And they perform various acts of subterfuge around the world to aid in their goal of rebuilding the Suel Empire and taking over the world.

The Empire of Iuz is the worst of the lot. It was formerly a bandit gang led by a Cambion named Iuz who conquered and built up bandit and monster tribes until a large chunk of the world belonged to him. Iuz using the magic taught by his mother and the demonic boons by his father terrorized and oppressed all he came into contact with and basically turned the lands he controlled into Mordor. The people of his empire were allowed to pray to no name but his, and through his great power he eventually clutched the spark of divinity becoming a demigod representing pain and oppression. Ruling over his empire as an immortal near all powerful tyrant, his people have become twisted as well knowing no other life then the one under him and having no hope for anything else.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Except villians in FR often win. Tymanther lost most of it's territory to Gilgeam, Szazz Tam rules one of the most powerful nations in the world, and he wins most of his battles, only really losing the world ending ones. Set and Sebek are back ruling Mulhorand with their family.

Cyric was successful in killing Mysteria and blowing up the realms.

Dark Elf cities thrive in their Chaos and dominate much of the underdark.

The Zhentarium is rebuilding and becoming a major power again. FR has more powerful evil Gods then most settings have Gods period.

Thieves Guild thrive in many cities. Asmodeus managed to stay a God in the face of horrifying adversity.

In the FR the good guys always win in the end. If a bad guy seems to be ahead, it just means it's not the end.

See: Infinity War.