D&D General Greyhawk setting material

[Parmandur]

One other thought I had.

There's been many calls to reset Greyhawk back to the boxed set. Ok. You also want to chuck out the Scarlet Brotherhood too? After all that wasn't added to the setting until the late 90's. The species purist monk thing didn't exist in Greyhawk as anything other than a name on the Darlene map.

So, are folks groovy with chucking probably the most iconic element of Greyhawk outside of the AD&D modules?

Funny thing about canon purists. By and large, canon purity is just a dogwhistle for stuff I like and anything I don't like isn't canon. Well, folks, Scarlet Brotherhood are certainly not canon if we reset to the 1983 boxed set.

I think that GoS struck the perfect balance: set back to the 1983 box set time period and assumptions, but mindful of latter possible events and PHB expectations.

The Scarlet Brotherhood were already the racial supramacisf Nazi Freemason Al'Quada Mafia in 1983.

 

[Greg K]

One other thought I had.

There's been many calls to reset Greyhawk back to the boxed set. Ok. You also want to chuck out the Scarlet Brotherhood too? After all that wasn't added to the setting until the late 90's. The species purist monk thing didn't exist in Greyhawk as anything other than a name on the Darlene map.

Wrong. The Scarlet Brotherhood goes back to the 1980 folio where there was a brief discussion of its cause (militarists believing the Suel people to be the rightful rulers of the Flanaess and evil is the way to that end), its belief in racial superiority, and its organizational structure. The folio was by Gary. Therefore, the Scarlet Brotherhood would exist.

 

[Hussar]

Wrong. The Scarlet Brotherhood goes back to the 1980 folio where there was a brief discussion of its cause (militarists believing the Suel people to be the rightful rulers of the Flanaess and evil is the way to that end), its belief in racial superiority, and its organizational structure. The folio was by Gary. Therefore, the Scarlet Brotherhood would exist.

Yeah, faulty memory. Sorry about that. That whole paragraph or two in the boxed set did slip my mind.

It wouldn't be until the tail end of 2e that anything would actually be DONE with that, but, hey, you are right, it is there.

So, yes, I went a bit far. But, the original point I made still stands. There's a ton of material off the table if you insist on 1983 being the cut off point. Which would rather be a shame. And, frankly, a lot of it will fit in the setting with no real problems. I can't see adding Barbarians, Sorcerers, or Warlocks as being too much of a problem. Same goes with something like Dragonborn.

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, faulty memory. Sorry about that. That whole paragraph or two in the boxed set did slip my mind.

It wouldn't be until the tail end of 2e that anything would actually be DONE with that, but, hey, you are right, it is there.

So, yes, I went a bit far. But, the original point I made still stands. There's a ton of material off the table if you insist on 1983 being the cut off point. Which would rather be a shame. And, frankly, a lot of it will fit in the setting with no real problems. I can't see adding Barbarians, Sorcerers, or Warlocks as being too much of a problem. Same goes with something like Dragonborn.

The Scarlet Brotherhood in Ghosts of Saltmarsh is a particularly good example of the way I'd like to see moving forwards: they are in their 1E status quo in GoS, but actively plotting to move towards their 2E/3E status quo. The subsequent history gives a great potential framework for DMs to build political machinations.

 

[Greg K]

I can't see adding Barbarians, Sorcerers, or Warlocks as being too much of a problem. Same goes with something like Dragonborn.

I don't, necessarily, see a problem with the Berserker Barbarians other than Gary's chose not to give his Barbarian class rage. Many of the other class abilities are pretty close. I would just want to see something added to catch the flavor of the different cultures and the skills in which they specialized. Warlocks would be appropriate depending on the Patrons and Pacts. I could see Great Fiend Tome and Chain Pacts as cultist types. The Sorcerer, I am less sure of,based on the existing origins and their features.

 

[Greg K]

Poor Greyhawk. Once it became a commodity it lost its track to being an ongoing idea. Well, back to Greyfalkun for moi. It may not have the name, may not have the WOTC stamp, but at least it will require less arguing and hand wringing in getting something to print.

Rob, I just want Greyhawk set back to what was published by you and Gary and then set people lose. If people want to add Greyhawk Wars, From the Ashes, Dragonborn, etc. into their own campaigns that is great. However, baking it in to the default causes more issues for those of us that don't to deal with that stuff, because it changes the feel of the original default setting for us (there is a reason that many people say the changes introduced after you and Gary left TSR made the default setting feel more like the Forgotten Realms). Plus, there was unnecessary revising of Greyhawk history in 2e that was not looked upon kindly by Greyhawk fans

In addition, the more things post Gygax/Kuntz TSR era Greyhawk would set certain expectations among new players coming to a table. Allowing individual DMs to add things on their own to a base setting is just much easier, in my opinion, than taking out a bunch of material.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

Rob, I just want Greyhawk set back to what was published by you and Gary and then set people lose. If people want to add Greyhawk Wars, From the Ashes, Dragonborn, etc. into their own campaigns that is great. However, baking it in to the default causes more issues for those of us that don't to deal with that stuff, because it changes the feel of the original default setting for us (there is a reason that many people say the changes introduced after you and Gary left TSR made the default setting feel more like the Forgotten Realms). Plus, there was unnecessary revising of Greyhawk history in 2e that was not looked upon kindly by Greyhawk fans

In addition, the more things post Gygax/Kuntz TSR era Greyhawk would set certain expectations among new players coming to a table. Allowing individual DMs to add things on their own to a base setting is just much easier, in my opinion, than taking out a bunch of material.

Well, considering the parts I bolded, above, we are at the cross roads of the commerce of ideas and the inclusive market--two generally opposed paths. Paraphrasing from my part on premade (general information/general use) material and DM-sculpted (specific/individual use) material in "A New Ethos in Game Design: The Paradigm Shift Originated by D&D, 1972-1977": Greyhawk became a casualty in TSR's massive shift to satisfy the general consumer. Not only of itself, but by massively detailed settings like FR and DL which could produce more profit than the DIY ethic allowed for, even with the plopping down of adventures onto its surface. It was the remaining DIY ethic attached to Greyhawk as a form which had been quickly becoming obsolete for the mass production model which depends on a median consumer approach. So it was never going to compete at that market/bottom line level, and so faded into what it has become, chopped and hacked at as the few, like Sargeant, attempted to revitalize it; and I even made a stab numerous times (1997 crafted a full re-marketing plan for it now online at my current blog that WotC never got back to Gary and myself on).

So it is not only sorting out the confused parts, but it's also dealing with the DIY part as opposed to the median market approach. Even I recognized that as the ultimate problem and thus had to champion larger SB's (Priests of GH with specific spell sets) detailed regional settings (Wild Coast) as the only way forward to not only get beyond GH's adventure-centricity but to compete with FR and DL. I fear that that is the only way to go at this point and as you point out, the taffy pull occurs anew and there is probably no sorting it out without fall out from one or the other angles.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm still not seen a reason why a 5e version of Greyhawk couldn't support PC tieflings and dragonborn beyond "they weren't there when Gary designed the setting." (so was a lot of other things in D&D) and "They are already in FR, Greyhawk should be different." (So are elves and nobody is calling for their removal). Neither seems to say that the races are directly incompatible, as much as they are an appeal to tradition. I'm looking for for established lore that would directly thwart each races existence, or at least use as a PC race. Is there any?

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

They is an easy way to can add new things to the world of Oerth. Planegates in the Graysphere. Lots of alien races could be visitors traveling by spelljammers or planar gates. A dragonborn or a tiefling wouldn't be stranger than the races and classes from Oriental Adventures.

The matter is about the "Skywalker effect", when a little group of heroes or villains are always changing the future or the world or universe. In FR there are groups who save the day, but not always the same. In Dragonlance most of main actions are by the heroes of the lance, or some members of the family. GH is the world of the circle of eight. Other groups are possible, but only a little number of "chosen" can change the "metaplot".

* I wonder about an agreement between WotC and Gygaxgames for the return of his creations. This would allow Gord the rogue to be canon again.

* How to explain it better with an example? Today Harley Quinn is one of the most famous DC characters, her origin was the cartoon of Batman, the animated serie, and later she appeared with a different look in the videogames of Arkham saga. I mean we could bet the future projects about D&D for the media (movies, videogames, TV/internet streamers) could affect the TTRPG. For example creating a videogame of Spelljammer they could discover the gunpowder is too cheap, easy to be used by "rookies" or powerful if we compare with the "expensive" magic item and spellcasters with enough experience. And then they should "playtesting" "cheaper" magic tricks again firearms. Later this tricks would be canon in the books.

* After Eberron the next step will be Spelljammer, and this could cause an unintentional revolution in the metaplot of most of D&D worlds, even GH. Not only because these skyships with giant crossbows could help to kill some kaiju-like monsters, but the "cultural impact" caused by aliens from other worlds.

* Maybe some "multiversal event" in Nethir Vale ("points of light") will cause this setting will become other "transition land between worlds" as Planescape, Spelljammer and Ravenloft. A planar gate creating a link between the Graysphere and the crystal sphere of Nethir Vale could explain the new things added in GH in the last editions.

 

[David Howery]

It wouldn't be until the tail end of 2e that anything would actually be DONE with that, but, hey, you are right, it is there.

yeah, I loved the SB booklet... mainly in that it detailed Hepmonaland and the Amedio Jungle, two areas that had been neglected before that. I still don't care for the Wars' idea of outing the SB and having them take over half the south. But... unless WOTC plans on actually releasing the WoG as a book/boxed set again, it may not matter... if they plan on updating some classic modules into 5E ala GoS and nothing more, the status of the SB won't matter much...