Grim-n-Gritty: Revised and Simplified

[KenHood]

If you then add weapon finesse, letting Dex add to damage on the damage roll, you let Dex count twice.

Much like you already count Strength twice in the system, but the weapon finesse feat has limited application (light weapons), whereas Strength (as it stands) applies to all melee weapons. Light weapons have lower damage potential than other weapons, so it ends up helping only a little.

Consider the example of Harold the Halfling. The +4 bonus from his Weapon Finesse was cancelled by his -4 damage penalty from size.

 

[KenHood]

Here's how combat would work if the "Dexterity controls all attack rolls" rule were implemented.

I've taken the Otis v. Fred, Harold, & Warren fight, used the same rolls, and applied the modifiers differently.

Also, I realized that 3.5E handles weapon finesse a little differently than 3.0E, so I applied a -1 penalty for Harold's buckler and made his short sword small size.

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Pertinent Statistics

Fred the Fighter – 5th level
Attack: +8 (+5 base, +1 Dexterity, +1 masterwork, +1 weapon focus)
Defense: +8 (+5 base, +1 Dexterity, +2 heavy steel shield)
Soak: +10 (+2 Constitution, +8 full plate)
Damage: bastard sword, 1d10 + 5 (+3 strength, +2 specialization)

Harold the Halfling Rogue – 5th level
Attack: +8 (+4 base, +4 Dexterity, +1 enhancement, -1 buckler)
Defense: +11 (+5 base, +4 Dexterity, +1 buckler, +1 size)
Soak: +0 (+1 Constitution, +3 studded leather, -4 size)
Damage: small short sword, 1d4 + 1 (+4 Dexterity (weapon finesse), +1 enhancement, -4 size)
Special: Sneak Attack +6

Warren the Wizard – 5th level
Attack: +4 (+2 base, +2 Dexterity)
Defense: +4 (+2 base, +2 Dexterity)
Soak: +2 (+1 Constitution, +1 Bracers of Armor)
Damage: quarterstaff, 1d6

Otis the Ogre
Attack: +3 (+4 base, -1 size, -1 Dexterity, +1 weapon focus)
Defense: +2 (+4 base, -1 size, -1 Dexterity)
Soak: +16 (+3 Constitution, +4 size, +5 natural armor, +3 hide armor, +1 toughness)
Damage: greatclub, 2d8 + 9 (+5 Strength, +4 size)

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Fred wins initiative and swings at Otis with his bastard sword.

Fred (attack): rolls 18
Otis (defense): rolls 9

Fred hits with an 7 point margin of success. Not enough for a critical hit.

Fred rolls his damage: 1d10 + 5 + 7 (margin of success) = 16 points – 16 (Otis’ Soak) = 0. Otis shrugs off the blow.

---

Harold sneaks up behind Fred, flanks, and performs a sneak attack on Otis.

Harold (attack): rolls 17
Otis (defense): rolls 11

Harold hits with a 6 point margin of success. He does not make a critical hit.

Harold rolls his damage: 1d4 + 1 + 6 (sneak attack) + 6 (margin of success) = 15 points – 16 (Otis’ Soak) = no damage. Again, Otis shrugs off the blow.

---

Otis attacks Fred, the real threat.

Otis (attack): 21
Fred (defense): 12

Otis hits with a 9 point margin of success. No critical.

Otis rolls damage: 2d8 + 9 + 9 (margin of success) = 26 points – 10 (Fred’s Soak) = 16 points of damage.

Fred is disabled.

In this version of the combat, Fred gets to crawl away…

And get killed later by Otis.

---

Warren panics and casts fireball, thinking, “Well, Harold does have evasion and a good Reflex save….”

In the normal rules, Warren would roll 5d6 for his fireball. Under the GnG rules, he rolls 4d6 + 2 and inflicts 18 points of damage. Otis’ Soak absorbs 16 points, so Otis suffers only 2 points of damage. This fills in two more pips and brings him to Moderately Wounded. He suffers a -1 penalty on most rolls.

Harold does make his saving throw, but he’s not too happy about the fireball.

---

Harold curses Warren. Though Harold no longer flanking Otis and loses the sneak attack, Harold attacks again.

Harold (attack): 20
Otis (defense): 6

Harold hits with a 14 point margin of success. It threatens a critical hit and selects, “Bypass Natural Armor.” Harold rolls to confirm and gets a 16, while Otis rolls 12. Otis is forced to make a Reflex save against DC 13. Bad luck for Harold! Otis rolls 19.

Go, ogre!

Uh, I mean, poor Harold!

Harold rolls his damage: 1d4 + 1 + 14 (margin of success) = 18 – 16 (Otis’ soak) = 2 points of damage. Otis is Lightly Wounded.

---

Otis beats Harold like a drum.

A squishy, screaming, fluid-filled, bone-supported drum.

Otis (attack): 22
Harold (defense): 21

Otis wins by a margin of 1. Not enough for a critical hit, but plenty to ruin Harold’s day.

Otis rolls damage: 2d8 + 9 + 1 (margin of success) = 18 – 0 (Harold’s soak) = 18 points of damage.

Goody! This time Harold is only disabled!

Otis will kill him later.

---

Shortly after soiling himself and wondering if CR 3 still means the same thing in the GnG system, Warren tries an acid arrow against Otis.

Warren (+4 for ranged touch attack): 24
Otis (defense): 14

Warren hits with a 10 point margin of success. He threatens a critical hit! He selects “Bypass Natural Armor” and rolls to confirm: Warren gets 18. Otis gets 4. Warren confirms the hit and ignores the Soak from Otis’ natural armor.

Warren rolls for damage: 2d4 + 10 = 15 – 11 (Otis’ Soak without Natural Armor) = 4 points of damage. Otis loses 4 more life pips. Now, he’s Moderately Wounded (-1 on most rolls).

And angry!

---

Otis charges Warren!

---

Lucky Warren! He gets to make an attack of opportunity against the charging Otis. Screaming like a girl-child, he swings his staff.

Warren (attack): 19
Otis (defense): 13

Warren hits with a 6 point margin of success. Not a critical hit!

Warren rolls damage: 1d6 + 6 (margin of success) = 9 – 16 (Otis’ Soak) = NO DAMAGE!

Yeah!

---

Otis completes his charge.

Otis (charge, attack): 15
Warren (defense): 9

Otis gets a 6 point margin of success. No critical hit.

Otis rolls his damage: 2d8 + 9 + 6 (margin of success) = 30 – 2 (Warren’s Soak) = 28 points of damage. Warren dies instantly.

Good news! Warren didn’t get a disabled head in this version of the combat!

Bad news! Warren is still dead!

----

The main difference: Fewer critical hits.

Harold still can't get a decent hit on the Ogre.

Fred gets the shaft on his attack roll.

Otis really gets the shaft on his attack roll. He doesn't instantly kill folks, just disables them.

Maybe making Dex the only stat for attack rolls isn't such a big deal...

 

[Cheiromancer]

Shortly after soiling himself and wondering if CR 3 still means the same thing in the GnG system...

Maybe making Dex the only stat for attack rolls isn't such a big deal...

What CR *is* Otis, anyways, in GnG? Maybe 9 or 10? The Dex variant makes him a little weaker, but not enough to help our heroes. A quick'n'dirty CR calculator would be a nice addition to the rules, methinks.

 

[Pielorinho]

A couple questions regarding your example. First, I notice that the PCs are pretty underequipped for fifth-level characters; is this deliberate? Harold especially would benefit from a masterwork buckler, and poor Fred looks like he has no relevant magic at all. But this may well be deliberate; just figured I'd check.

Second, I think there are some incorrect numbers, as follows:

Fred wins initiative and swings at Otis with his bastard sword.

Fred (attack): rolls 18
Otis (defense): rolls 9

Fred hits with an 7 point margin of success. Not enough for a critical hit.

Fred rolls his damage: 1d10 + 5 + 7 (margin of success) = 16 points – 16 (Otis’ Soak) = 0. Otis shrugs off the blow.

That's a nine-point margin of success, enough for a critical and at least two points of damage. However, assuming the same critical as in the previous example, Otis shrugs it off.

Warren panics and casts fireball, thinking, “Well, Harold does have evasion and a good Reflex save….”

Warren may want to change this action, now that his friend Fred is still alive. Of course, wizards do sometimes panic.... It might be interesting to see Warren choose a noncombat spell in this example, since damage spells are going to be just about useless. What about grease, or haste, or ray of enfeeblement, or enlarge? What about enlarge? Now the single best first-level spell, far eclipsing magic missile.

In the normal rules, Warren would roll 5d6 for his fireball. Under the GnG rules, he rolls 4d6 + 2 and inflicts 18 points of damage. Otis’ Soak absorbs 16 points, so Otis suffers only 2 points of damage. This fills in two more pips and brings him to Moderately Wounded. He suffers a -1 penalty on most rolls.

?? This was the first time in the combat he was wounded, in this version. Except, of course, for the two points that Fred did in the first round (see my first correction): he should not be moderately wounded yet.

Also, while it may be a bug and not a feature that magic stands almost no chance of hurting large creatures, a system by which failed saves add to damage in the same way that high attack rolls do (e.g., fail the save by 5 points and suffer an additional 5 points of damage) might be interesting. Or it may suck.

Harold curses Warren. Though Harold no longer flanking Otis and loses the sneak attack, Harold attacks again.

Do disabled people no longer threaten? Or did you just assume that Fred crawled away immediately on his turn instead of (sensibly) delaying until after Harold acted? Or did Warren's fireball finish Fred off?

Harold hits with a 14 point margin of success. It threatens a critical hit and selects, “Bypass Natural Armor.” Harold rolls to confirm and gets a 16, while Otis rolls 12. Otis is forced to make a Reflex save against DC 13. Bad luck for Harold! Otis rolls 19.

Not that it would matter, but if you switch the prime attack attribute to Dex, shouldn't the save vs. melee-inflicted criticals also be dex-based? Otis would make it in either case, of course.

Harold rolls his damage: 1d4 + 1 + 14 (margin of success) = 18 – 16 (Otis’ soak) = 2 points of damage. Otis is Lightly Wounded.

May need recalculation, based on above questions.

Warren rolls for damage: 2d4 + 10 = 15 – 11 (Otis’ Soak without Natural Armor) = 4 points of damage. Otis loses 4 more life pips. Now, he’s Moderately Wounded (-1 on most rolls).

Recalculate?

Lucky Warren! He gets to make an attack of opportunity against the charging Otis.

As do Fred and Harold, right? or am I missing something about the disabled condition?

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

I want to expand on what I said before: enlarge absolutely rocks. For example, if Harold were enlarged, he'd be doing an extra 3 points of damage per attack (+4 size, +1 weapon size, -1 dex penalty from attack, -1 dex penalty from damge) and taking 2 points of damage less per attack from soak (includes dex defense penalty and size defense penalty). Fred, relying on strength for damage, does an extra 4 points of damage per attack and sufers two less damage per attack.

Daniel

 

[DonAdam]

To be fair, Enlarge Person has been broken since 3.5, even before this; it is superior to Bull's Strength and 1 level lower.

Another thing that scares me is True Strike. Looks like instant death.

 

[apoptosis]

Ken love ure system. Have used the first edition of it (though it was a mite deadlier than i anticipated when dealing with critters but u did warn ahead of time)

The new system looks interesting. From my type games. Magic is rare, dangerous to the user but is supposed to be very deadly (evasion is somewhat different for instance).

In ure new system it seems to go from magic being relatively non deadly at low levels to once u past the soak level to exceedingly deadly (which i like). Low level spells that do 1-4 damage will not affect anything (for instance if i am understanding everything, harold could hold a torch in his bare hand indefinitely)

Some ideas that i was thinking about (they could be awful so feel free to unload) is to maybe increase magics effectiveness (if wanted) would be for area effect spells of certain size (fireball etc.) to treat critters as 1 to 2 sizes smaller for purposes of soak.

I also liked the idea of missing the save by a certain amount adds to the damage.

One possibility of dealing with spells like true strike would be to consider the bonuses only in terms of making criticals and not as damage (but this could lead to other issues).

My 0.01 cents feel free to disembowl at leisure.

apoptosis

 

[Pielorinho]

Another thing that scares me is True Strike. Looks like instant death.

Good call! Had Warren gone true strike in his first round, then his acid arrow in the second round would have done a bit more damage--20 pips instead of 4. (this assumes that Otis was in melee but didn't have cover from Harold or Fred). That, combined with the two points of damage Fred did in the first round, would've knocked Otis down to dying.

True Strike becomes a must-have spell, too. In fact, most fighters with an Int or Cha of 11 or greater would be fools not to take a level of wizard or sorcerer in order to gain the spell.

Suggestion: GnG rules should either reduce the effect of, or eliminate, enlarge and true strike.

Daniel

 

[KenHood]

A couple questions regarding your example.

Whoa. Whoa.

I just cut-n-paste to give an example of what might happen if you adjusted the rules. That's why the text is the same darned stuff and none of the actions were changed. It was about five minutes of work. I'm not going to put in a lot of effort of something to show what might happen if you implement a variant rule -- that I don't even use! It's got mistakes because it's something I slapped together, to give folks a general idea of differences.

No nitpicking!

As for the equipment, I took the NPC's listed in the DMG 3.5.

 

[KenHood]

Suggestion: GnG rules should either reduce the effect of, or eliminate, enlarge and true strike.

Nope.

I saw those two coming a long way back and was waiting to see if anyone would pick up on it.

I like the fact that the system causes some non-combat spells to increase in value. If it's a big deal to you, then change their level or eradicate them in your personal application of the rules.

I don't mind clearing up an error or two here and there. One thing I won't do is create a whole list of variants on spells or (UGH!) a long list of new CR's. I'm not interested in doing that sort of detailed grunt work. For me, it is no fun.