Grim-n-Gritty: Revised and Simplified

[Cergorach]

Is there a chance anyone could reformat this real quick as an .rtf file for those of us without MS Word?

We have the following:
http://www.TheHelix.nl/GrimNGrittyRevised.doc
http://www.TheHelix.nl/GrimNGrittyRevised.rtf
http://www.TheHelix.nl/GrimNGrittyRevised.pdf

 

[Fenris]

Ken,
First of all kudos on the revision. Everytime I said "well, but what about X" I read one more paragraph and there it was.
One small thing;
At least the copy I downloaded had a typo in the Critical Hit effect for Bypassing Heavy armor. It references Medium Armor.

Thanks for your efforts. Even if I never use the rules, I like the idea of them.

 

[whydirt]

Couldn't post it, so I sent you an e-mail of the .rtf version. If you can load it onto the thread, I'd appreciate it.

Seem to recall your handle from a while back.

Thanks Ken!

It seems .rtf isn't a valid file type for uploads, so I changed it to a basic .txt file. This lost a bit of the nice formatting, giving the rules a gritter feel. I've included this .txt version for others. EDIT: It looks like I was beaten to the punch on providing a different version for people to use. I'll keep the .txt version here just in case.

I'll post my reaction after I've had a bit of time to let the rules soak in a bit (pun intended).

Yeah, I followed most of your d20 stuff from back in the day. I'm sad to see the Sleeping Imperium stuff gone for the timebeing, but I hope that means that I might see some official product in the future.

 

[whydirt]

I took a quick break for a snack, then took some time to read through the rules. Here are just a couple questions/comments:

1. Out of curiosity, what made you pick 5 pips per damage level? You could use different number of pips for each category to represent varying levels of cinematic/gritty combat, so that your system can be used more generally by people who want to represent armor as soaking blows and not just by those looking for Grim-n-Gritty combat. This probably was not an intended design goal, but I think it is a handy side-effect.

2. How does healing, both natural and magical, work in this system? The most obvious conversion would be to equate healing 1 hp to one damage pip, but that isn't very gritty in my opinion.

3. The extra damage from more than 4 dice seem a bit high at just under the average result for each die (an exception being the +6 for a d20). You mention your reason behind eliminating the extra dice is because of the limited life bar, but taking a set value so close to the average random result doesn't reduce the damage that much. I think your previously used even numbers become 1s rule would work here again. Another way to do it would be to reduce all damage dice from spells by one or more steps.

4. Your critical hit rules seem more like older called shot rules since you choose your intended effect. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but I'm curious as to your reason behind making it a choice instead of a random effect. I will say that the DC formula for avoiding critical hit effects seems overly complicated. Maybe you could just make the confirmation attack roll the base DC instead?

5. What do you think about adding a "Damage Armor" effect in your critical hit list? If you wanted to streamline your "Bypass Armor" critical effect types, just give a general penalty equal to the AC bonus of the armor instead of having to list each armor type separately.

 

[KenHood]

1. Out of curiosity, what made you pick 5 pips per damage level? You could use different number of pips for each category to represent varying levels of cinematic/gritty combat, so that your system can be used more generally by people who want to represent armor as soaking blows and not just by those looking for Grim-n-Gritty combat. This probably was not an intended design goal, but I think it is a handy side-effect.

5 pips ended up producing the effect I most wanted. I was basing the number off the result of a d20. Assuming two opponents are equal, there's a +1 to +19 bonus to damage. I wanted it possible to disable or nearly kill a character based on the success of the d20 attack roll.

I didn't think about using the system for varying degrees of reality. You're right.

2. How does healing, both natural and magical, work in this system? The most obvious conversion would be to equate healing 1 hp to one damage pip, but that isn't very gritty in my opinion.

Check the last page of the rules. It discusses healing and shows how much the various "cure" spells will recover. I didn't list every curative spell in existence, just gave enough so that you could fix others by comparison.

3. The extra damage from more than 4 dice seem a bit high at just under the average result for each die (an exception being the +6 for a d20). You mention your reason behind eliminating the extra dice is because of the limited life bar, but taking a set value so close to the average random result doesn't reduce the damage that much. I think your previously used even numbers become 1s rule would work here again. Another way to do it would be to reduce all damage dice from spells by one or more steps.

It does seem a little high, but when I plotted it out, it gave the results I wanted and kept the die sizes differientiated. I reckon that anything with 4d+ damage should kill your character, unless something extraordinary takes place. I am considering collapsing the table to something like...

1d6 or less: +1 per die
1d8 to 1d10: +2 per die
1d12: +3 per die
1d20: +4 per die

...but I need some playtesting. That's why I released these rules, so y'all could give them a spin and see if they perform to expectations.

I've never been a fan of the 1s rule. I don't like reducing damage dice.

4. Your critical hit rules seem more like older called shot rules since you choose your intended effect. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but I'm curious as to your reason behind making it a choice instead of a random effect. I will say that the DC formula for avoiding critical hit effects seems overly complicated. Maybe you could just make the confirmation attack roll the base DC instead?

The critical hit rules are a conversion of the older called shots. They also replace the penetration rules of the older system -- and put an end to that whole doggone argument over what things have the best penetration, along with the endless suggestions to create a comprehensive list of all weapons performance against different types of armor, along with the nasty e-mails saying that a pick isn't better than an arrow, etc., when all I intended to do in the original with the short list was give a few examples to let folks create their own penetration items.

You can choose the effect, so that a critical hit (which is supposed to be a really good thing) can bail you out in a bad situation. If you have trouble bypassing a creature's natural armor, then a critical hit allows you to "punctuate probability" and break through that armor.

I thought about the confirmation roll for DC, but that makes things REALLY complicated. A set DC is easier to keep up with.

I don't think the formula is too difficult. It follows the standard base + main modifier + ability score + other modifiers.

Base: 10
Main modifier: 1/2 your base attack bonus
Ability Score: Strength for melee, Dexterity for ranged
Other modifiers: Weapon's enhancement bonuses, Critical multiplier

For example, a 10th level fighter with 17 Strength and a +2 pick has a Critical Effect DC as follows:

Base: 10
Main modifier: +5 (10/2)
Ability Score: +3 (Strength modifier)
Other modifiers: +2 enhancement bonus, +10 for the pick's x4 multiplier

Total DC: 30 (Picks do good criticals!)

You might be saying, "Well, heck, I'll always use a pick!"

But think about this: If the same character used a +1 keen rapier (critical threat: 18-20 [3 points] doubled to 15-20 [6 points]), he would threaten a critical hit with every successful attack. His DC would be different, though.

Base: 10
Main modifier: +5 (10/2)
Ability Score: +3 (Strength modifier)
Other modifiers: +1 enhancement bonus, +0 for the x2 multiplier

Total DC: 19

Creating the "critical effects" mechanic allowed me to do some of the same stuff as the penetration mechanic in the old system (i.e., get past all that protection), but opens up options for using a wide variety of weapons, rather than just running around with a pick.

Finally, linking armor penetration to critical hits creates some unique situations with undead, constructs, and oozes. They are immune to critical hits. Heh-heh! Now, they're a heck of a thing to kill, but I don't have to create special rules for dealing with their unique physiologies.

5. What do you think about adding a "Damage Armor" effect in your critical hit list? If you wanted to streamline your "Bypass Armor" critical effect types, just give a general penalty equal to the AC bonus of the armor instead of having to list each armor type separately.

I'd rather have a character perform a sunder to damage armor. The critical effects deal with things that happen to the organism, rather than its equipment. My personal preference is to avoid having critical hits do the same thing as special attacks, like the trip, sunder, bull rush, et al.

You can give the "Damage Armor" effect a whirl in your own game, though. Let me know if it fits and works.

 

[KenHood]

Expectations for the System

These are my expectations (i.e., desires) for the system:

1) Characters will die more often in a fight.

2) At low levels, fights are not horribly lethal, though still unpredictable.

3) At high levels or against monsters, fights get lethal.

4) Equally matched opponents have a good chance of killing one another with a single blow.

5) Area-effect attacks or anything with a lot of damage dice should cremate characters.

6) Big things splatter little things.

7) Armor helps a hell of a lot.

8) Cover helps even more.

9) Sneaking and ambush help most of all.

10) Overall, combat becomes more unpredictable.

11) Overall, characters are rewarded for greater skill.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ken, my comment wasn't about the lack of hitpoints, but rather the game balancing effects hit points had between the different fighter types: Ranger d8, Fighter/Paladin d10, Barbarian d12.

From a design balance perspective, there really isn't a huge difference between d8 and d10 or d10 and d12 (an average of 1 hit point per level).

If your fighter could sacrifice 1 hit point per level for the skill points and/or spellcasting ability of a ranger, would ya do it? Or do you think skill points and spellcasting are better balanced, for example, by the fighter's bonus feats?

I guess my point is, that hit die difference isn't really offsetting very much from the other classes. It's really more of a "rounding up or down," last minute, final tweak kinda thing.

Ken, I think your rules are great. I'm not surprised that they didn't get a warm reception on Monte's boards-- why anyone would think that Monte's high fantasy system would be a match for Grim and Gritty is beyond me. AU is not the place where GnG goes to play. (I tell you I'm running Grim and Gritty in my game, and you tell me you want to play a fairy, I'll show you the door...)

Wulf

 

[whydirt]

Check the last page of the rules. It discusses healing and shows how much the various "cure" spells will recover. I didn't list every curative spell in existence, just gave enough so that you could fix others by comparison.

My fault. Too much reading, too quickly, too late at night.

It does seem a little high, but when I plotted it out, it gave the results I wanted and kept the die sizes differientiated. I reckon that anything with 4d+ damage should kill your character, unless something extraordinary takes place. I am considering collapsing the table to something like...

1d6 or less: +1 per die
1d8 to 1d10: +2 per die
1d12: +3 per die
1d20: +4 per die

...but I need some playtesting. That's why I released these rules, so y'all could give them a spin and see if they perform to expectations.

I've never been a fan of the 1s rule. I don't like reducing damage dice.

Fair enough. Obviously real playtesting is much better, but I thought I'd give some initial feedback in the meantime.

In terms of actual playing-the-game context, I like being able to throw fistfuls of dice every now and again. And there are few things more grim for a player than watching the DM grab for a pile of dice while flashing a grin.

I thought about the confirmation roll for DC, but that makes things REALLY complicated. A set DC is easier to keep up with.

I don't think the formula is too difficult. It follows the standard base + main modifier + ability score + other modifiers.

You're completely right. Considering you'll likely only need to calculate the DC once per weapon per level or so, it's not a big deal.

Finally, linking armor penetration to critical hits creates some unique situations with undead, constructs, and oozes. They are immune to critical hits. Heh-heh! Now, they're a heck of a thing to kill, but I don't have to create special rules for dealing with their unique physiologies.

Heh.

I'd rather have a character perform a sunder to damage armor. The critical effects deal with things that happen to the organism, rather than its equipment. My personal preference is to avoid having critical hits do the same thing as special attacks, like the trip, sunder, bull rush, et al.

You can give the "Damage Armor" effect a whirl in your own game, though. Let me know if it fits and works.

I'll let you know if/when I get a chance to test-drive it.

 

[doghead]

doghead finally works it out

Er, yeah. Once I realised that the 2002 dates were not the 'posted' dates, this thread (and its appearence now) made a whole lot more sence.

I am currently looking to start a PbP dnd game here on the boards using the Grim n Gritty rules. I was really taken with them when I first read them (the HP version). I'll read through the new rules asap. Should it get off the ground, I'll keep you informed of anything significant that comes out of it.

And, by God and green apples, it gives me a hairlip and conniption when I hear folks complainin' about the rules working like they're supposed to work.

Not exactly sure what 'conniption' means, but i sure wouldn't want one

the head of the dog

 

[KenHood]

In terms of actual playing-the-game context, I like being able to throw fistfuls of dice every now and again. And there are few things more grim for a player than watching the DM grab for a pile of dice while flashing a grin.

Me, too. Remember, I'm the guy who created the original GnG rules and didn't have any "softeners" for the magic system. You got hit with a 10d6 fireball, you got the whole 10d6 -- no odds equal 1s.

It wasn't until a lot of folks started freaking out about their characters dying when they used the regular magic system that I added some suggestions for "softeners." By putting the dice cap in the rules, I head that off at the pass. And it looks like I'm making them softer....

Uh, did I say "looks"? I meant, I really am making it softer.

Yeah. That's the ticket.

Anyway, the dice cap makes the difference between your character ending up dead from dragon's breath and ending up dead from dragon's breath.

(You read that last sentence correctly.)

At the lower ends of the damage spectrum, the dice cap allows you to make the difference between being disabled by a fireball and suffering serious injury from a fireball. For example, a 6d6 fireball becomes 4d6+4. Average damage 18. Unarmored human with 10 Constitution fails save. Splat! Disabled. Same person makes save. Splat! Seriously wounded. Screams a lot.

That's about how a fireball should work in "real life" (tm).

Switch to a 10d6 fireball. In revised GnG, it becomes 4d6+12. Average damage 26. Unarmored human with 10 Constitution fails save. Splat! Dead! Same person makes save. Splat! Seriously wounded. Screams a lot more.

Boppo the Barbarian with 18 Constitution (+4 Soak), +4 armor, and Damage Reduction 2/- (+2 Soak) has a total Soak of 10. He gets hit by the 10d6 fireball. Average damage 26. Boppo fails save. Suffers 26 - 10 = 16 points of damage. He's disabled. Boppo makes save. Suffers 13 - 10 = 3 points of damage. Lightly wounded. Singed and angry. Run, wizard, run!

Boppo gets hit by great wyrm red dragon. Red dragon normally inflicts 24d10, average 132. In revised GnG, inflicts 4d10+80 damage, average 102. (Hey! Ken is sneaky. Adding flat damage modifiers significantly increases survivability at lower end of dice spectrum, but doesn't do jack squat at higher end. Whatta jerk!) Boppo fails save against red dragon breath. Suffers 102 - 10 = 92 damage. Incinerated. Boppo makes save against red dragon breath. Suffers 51 - 10 = 41 damage. Incinerated.

Bye, bye, Boppo.

Should Boppo have not been incinerated? No, no. Boppo should be incinerated when thrown in the equivalent of a furnace. This is, after all, the Grim-n-Gritty rules. Why is this dummy fighting a dragon?!

Against area effect attacks with a lot of dice, your character should grab heavy cover. The kind that affords Improved Evasion when you're under it. That's how "real folks" would deal with dragon breath. They don't stand around and take it. They run away and hide.

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