Grim-n-Gritty: Revised and Simplified

Etiquette_Gnome said:
<snip> I'm currently house-ruling this house-rule system :P, where only equipment based soak (aka Armor) does not help towards falling damage.

Is it your contention that natural armor would 'soak' up falling damage? I wouldn't imagine that it would really be much help.

Also, it occurs to me that size might work against you when falling. Instead of helping you 'soak' up more damage, a big creatures mass might actually hurt them more. (Witness a horse falling 5 feet versus a dog falling 5 feet. I think the dog would fare better.)
 
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Eeh, this thread is kind of long...

Any chance of compiling all the good stuff in a single location, and posting a link there from this thread's very first post? Preferably in a prominent position? (Posting it as a reply to my post will only make it buried at page 14...)

Aplogies if this has already happened, but I did try to read through the entire thread. Might have missed some things among the close to three hundred posts though...

As far as I can see, the deal consists of
* Ken's document (of course) in RTF and PDF (?)
* the final result of the "DEX instead of STR to hit" major variant
* I believe somebody posted character sheets
* (anything else?)

Thanks,
Zapp
 

One spell I think may need some reworking is Magic Missile. Because with Soak, it might become utterly useless. Ignoring Soak, it becomes massively overpowered. Overcomming Soak is usually an aspect of the attack roll, but MM doesn't make an attack roll because it "automatically hits". Does that mean we should assume a NAT20 for its attack roll? That also makes it massively dangerous.

Perhaps roll d10 + defender's defense? That could be interesting, but I'm not sure how well it would work.
 

Love the rules Ken!!! Going to very likely use them in my next Lankhmar campaign. BUT after spending a couple of hours playing out various combat scenarios with a friend I have a couple of questions I am hoping others who have played it out can help me with.

1st - Negative Constitution Modifiers. Do these subtract from your total soak roll? If so then a very poor constition increases the amount of damage you take with any given hit. Which can seem reasonable I guess. Just looking for confirmation on this.

2nd - How did anyone do the Paladin healing ability? Just curious about it.

Just as an FYI the only change we made to the rules as written was to remove the extra damage bonus for large size (big guys killed the little guys just fine w/o it). And we used the d4 die cap variant.

If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions for my questions it would be most helpful.
 

Thanks for bumping this thread! I'd actually been looking for it recently, without finding it. So in thanks, I'll answer... one of your questions.

Yes, negative constitution definitely lowers soak. My players have their soak and defense written out like AC used to be, with each modifier getting written down so that when one changes, or one becomes irrelevant, it's instantly noticable as to how things change.

My group lacks a paladin, so I don't know how to handle that. Seems like a bit of a tricky situation.

On the other hand, I did give "Energy Substitution: Positive" as a metamagic feat to the party's sorcerer (mostly because we also lack a cleric) so we have had to adjucate random other spells being turned into healing spells. The way we do THAT is compare the "damage" of the evocation in question to one of the cleric healing spells. So a positive energy Magic Missile heals 2 points per missile, because each missile can be compared to a Cure Light Wounds.

Now then.

Speaking of Magic Missile... the way I ended up working it is that each magic missile is treated as a 1d4 weapon (of force) that automatically rolls 1 higher than the defense, no matter what the defense is. (making each missile do... 1d4+1 damage) The critical range for each weapon would be, in non-GnG, 15-20, meaning that it automatically criticals. I also have it automatically confirm the critical. This has presented no problems... it makses the spell useful, but not devestating. The critical effect chosen is almost ALWAYS bypass XXX armor... blinding or breaking arms or legs or whatever doesn't work, because without bypassing a certain amount of soak, it's rare that any damage is EVER done by the spell when cast at creatures of comparable CR.

I also fixed True Strike likewise. Instead of giving players +20 to damage, which is insane, I make the spell give you a bonus to your attack roll sufficient to let you win by one, so long as this bonus doesn't exceed 20. Meaning that it's useful for enemies that have incredibly high defense, but next to no soak (or even negative soak!). A useful spell still, but not as godly as before. You may need true strike to kill grigs, for instance, but it won't help much against a dragon unless you're combining it with something else up your sleeve. It remains as useful as always for touch attack spells.

Here's something I'm thinking of adding to the system though, which I'd like feedback for...

I was considering pitting my guys up against a suit of empty armor this monday (if they get to a certain point). Now, I could give said suit of armor some nastily high soak, and "painless" traits (meaning no negative penalties for low HP) but in my mind, I'm seeing a battle where the party needs to dismantle the armor bit by bit in order to "kill" it, and that any two peices still in contact with each other with remain animated and be able to continue fighting... a creepy kind of monster fight. And while I could describe this as happening by every time 5 damage is done, something falls off... there's already a mechanic for dismantling something.

The critical hit rules.

Now what if I created a new trait for some Grim-n-Gritty creatures, that made them invulnerable to anything but critical hits? You can hack at this thing all you want, but unless you're putting out eyes or removing limbs, you ain't doin' jack to it. Give it soak 10 or maybe a bit more so that added damage by rolling that crit doesn't hurt it more. Make it an inherant bonus to saok so that it can't be bypassed by the critical. The idea here is to keep the physical damage low but possible, so that other critical effects are encouraged, and have them start chopping off limbs...

Now I'm thinking that there are lots of creatures this could apply well too, starting with the undead... but now that I'm thinking of it, why not everything that's normally immune to criticals? This is an odd reversion of the way things work, but with the new critical rules, I think it may very well apply better...

What do you guys think? I know I'm giving this to my enchanted suit of armor, but what about to all normally crit immune things?
 

Fieari said:
.....

Here's something I'm thinking of adding to the system though, which I'd like feedback for...

I was considering pitting my guys up against a suit of empty armor this monday (if they get to a certain point). Now, I could give said suit of armor some nastily high soak, and "painless" traits (meaning no negative penalties for low HP) but in my mind, I'm seeing a battle where the party needs to dismantle the armor bit by bit in order to "kill" it, and that any two peices still in contact with each other with remain animated and be able to continue fighting... a creepy kind of monster fight. And while I could describe this as happening by every time 5 damage is done, something falls off... there's already a mechanic for dismantling something.

The critical hit rules.

Now what if I created a new trait for some Grim-n-Gritty creatures, that made them invulnerable to anything but critical hits? You can hack at this thing all you want, but unless you're putting out eyes or removing limbs, you ain't doin' jack to it. Give it soak 10 or maybe a bit more so that added damage by rolling that crit doesn't hurt it more. Make it an inherant bonus to saok so that it can't be bypassed by the critical. The idea here is to keep the physical damage low but possible, so that other critical effects are encouraged, and have them start chopping off limbs...

Now I'm thinking that there are lots of creatures this could apply well too, starting with the undead... but now that I'm thinking of it, why not everything that's normally immune to criticals? This is an odd reversion of the way things work, but with the new critical rules, I think it may very well apply better...

What do you guys think? I know I'm giving this to my enchanted suit of armor, but what about to all normally crit immune things?


It sounds like an interesting idea you have. One option you could go for, if it applies to special creatures such as the physical undead (like zombies and mummies) and animated items like the suit of armor is to only apply the critical hit effect and ignore the actual physcial damage. Think of it like the classic horror zombie. They get hit with axes and bats and cars, BUT unless you put a bullet in the brainpan they just keep shambling at you. Basically the only way to hurt them is to get the crit effect in question. Cut off limbs, decapatation, such as that.

To simulate the decapatation idea just make it the disabled head effect as normal but allow damage to apply to the creature in that one instance. In effect if they hit the head and deal enough damage to killl it, its dead. Otherwise the head is still partially attached and it is still coming at'em. Your idea could make for an interesting effect. Might have to try it out with the coin golem idea from the old Ravenloft rules. Could work nicely there.
 

I just discovered these rules very recently, and I'm definitely going to have to try them in my next campaign. However, I had a couple of questions. I think I may already know the answers, but I'm just trying to make sure.
  • Are you allowed to apply your Dex modifier to your base Defense in situations where you wouldn't be allowed to apply it to AC? For example, if you're caught flat-footed, do you still get your Dex bonus to Defense? (My guess: No)
  • If you use a critical hit to bypass an enemy's armor bonus to Soak, do you also bypass any enhancement bonuses on that armor? (My guess: Yes)
  • If you use a critical hit to bypass an enemy's armor bonus to Soak, and the armor has an ability which activates when the wearer is struck, does that ability still activate? (My guess: Yes)
  • You can bypass armor with critical hits, and you can bypass size modifiers, but I noticed that you don't provide a way to bypass damage reduction with a critical hit. Is this deliberate? (My guess: Yes, it's deliberate)
  • If the target of an attack has an ability which would drop the damage by some proportion, rather than a fixed amount, does this apply before or after subtracting energy resistance and damage reduction? The Boppo example (where the ability is simply "save for half damage") shows that it comes before subtracting Soak, but what about ER and DR? (My guess: it comes before applying DR or energy resistance)
 
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The newer condensed version of this thread has gone missing, likely in the crash. If MOrrus is unable to restoore it I'm going to have to redo it. If anyone happens to have that thread saved offline, please drop an email to me so I can get things back up much easier ;_)

hagen_kirk at yahoo.com
 


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