[Grim Tales]High Magic Grim Tales?

Psion

Adventurer
Here's the deal:

I like the Grim Tales approach (sort of inherited from d20 modern) of providing a class ability or feat at each level.

But I hold very little interest in a "low magic" or "Grim n gritty" game. Maybe as a distraction, but not my slice of pie for long term gaming.

So, do you think it's possible to modify the grim tales character class rules such that magic using characters end up with powers on par with D&D spellcasters?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I also like the Grim Tales approach as you do. Grim Tales avoids advanced classes, so doing it with feats and talents would most likely be the way. Doing it in a way that doesn't take a feat or talent at every level is the trick. I wouldn't know where to begin though...

Grim Tales, as Wulf often says, is a toolbox. I don't think taking it and doing a High Magic variant is very feasible.
 

Psion said:
So, do you think it's possible to modify the grim tales character class rules such that magic using characters end up with powers on par with D&D spellcasters?

Sure, it's possible, but the trick is making magic using characters with powers on a par with the other Grim Tales characters.

I think if you hold fast to Rule Zero of Grim Tales Magic-- that is, no spell makes it into the game without the GM deliberately placing it there-- it might work. Be careful what spells you allow, seed the game with spellbooks or wizard's academies where a select list of pre-approved spells can be learned.

You should also switch from ability damage to non-lethal damage from spell burn (1d6 per spell level is fine). That removes the unpleasant "grittiness" of ability damage and allows casters pretty much free reign with what they want to cast, while still putting a finite limit on them.

I don't think anything else really needs to change. A GT "fighter" is better than any D&D "fighter" of equal level. So the definitive "no magic" class already has parity.

I'll just make one parting mention that D&D classes aren't very well balanced at high levels between non-magic and magic using classes, but that's a different issue than gritty/non-gritty anyway.
 

Wulf Ratbane said:
I think if you hold fast to Rule Zero of Grim Tales Magic-- that is, no spell makes it into the game without the GM deliberately placing it there-- it might work. Be careful what spells you allow, seed the game with spellbooks or wizard's academies where a select list of pre-approved spells can be learned.

You should also switch from ability damage to non-lethal damage from spell burn (1d6 per spell level is fine).

I think you underestimate the scale of what I am talking here.

I am talking -- say -- having "improved spell level" as a dedicated, smart, or (maybe) charismatic talent chain. Something on that order.

The issues I would have is how to smooth this with things like caster level, etc.

A GT "fighter" is better than any D&D "fighter" of equal level. So the definitive "no magic" class already has parity.

True enough. But not a huge concern. Part of the REASON I want to do this is because I feel that you should have advancement options (apart from skill points) at every level, and if the mages get feats too, they'll have more power.

I'll just make one parting mention that D&D classes aren't very well balanced at high levels between non-magic and magic using classes,

That sounds pretty authoritative, but having played a fair bit of high level D&D I can say that IME, it's as balanced as you can expect it to be, on the average (which is to say that things tend to get a little wild at those levels and balance shifts wildly).
 

Psion said:
I am talking -- say -- having "improved spell level" as a dedicated, smart, or (maybe) charismatic talent chain. Something on that order.

I don't get what you're describing here. You're obviously drawing a distinction between Improved Caster Level-- so what's Improved Spell Level do?

Wulf
 

IMO, casters in GT as written will allways lag behind their D&D counterparts. A GT caster has to spend every available talent on Improved Caster level, and even then they will be less effective spellcasters due to spell failure. A caster with maxed caster level will always have a significant chance of failure at his higher spell levels. (At least during combat; if you allow him to Take 10 outside of combat it helps). Letting the caster add his primary stat would help, too.

Additionally, since caster level will be around half class level , his spells will be dramatically less effective, even if you use the higher of spell level or caster level. Damage dice will be less, durations and ranges will be shorter, area of effect will be lesser. Letting caster level = class level for spell purposes would offset that.

Plus, throw spell burn on top of that, and GT casters have it hard. As they should, though, since the lowered effectiveness of spellcasting is offset by the absence of magic items, buffs, creatures with SLAs, etc.

You're also (for casters), taking away some of the reason you want to use GT if they are going to have to spend all their talents on casting skills, but if you don't, you're screwing the non-casters.
 

I'm currently working on a sort of "old school" D&D-like one-shot (with option to continue) for GT. Sort of a "the other end" game. With "Carob The Plunderer", "Nriftor Nimblefinger", "Blackleaf the Elf", and "Nomad" as the cast of characters, each sort of archetypal (barbarian, theif, elven magic-user/fighter, moody human guy).

The magic system is part of one that I put together not too long ago. Basically as GT, but Caster Level = Character Level, and spells do Lethal Damage.

To cast a spell you have to roll a Spellcraft check, take the damage, etc. "Magical Adept" gives you the ability to change the Lethal to Nonlethal damage and subtract your key casting stat's bonus from the damage total. MDTs (nonlethal and lethal) still apply, so a big spell and a small con might take you out. Spells only go to 4th level, and I'm keeping most of the Direct Damage out. After you cast a spell you have to make a Fort or Will save of DC 10 + (Damage) or become Winded/Fatigued/Exhausted/Unc. The "Fatigued" is the 8-hour-rest variety, so trying to cast more than 1-2 hard spells may very well leave you tired for the rest of the day. Visible effect spells require a Fortitude save (Damage Spells, creation, most Transmutation), Invisible Effect spells require a Will save (Detect Magic, say, or Identify). Improved Caster Level is out, but Master the Eldritch Flow works as usual.

Finally, I monkied with the "spell levels". Since the level of the spell really isn't connected to the level of the PC, just the damage and difficulty to cast, I pretty much tailored the spells as I saw fit. Healing is brought down to "Healing Touch", a 2nd level spell that converts 1d8+1/2 Level damage into Nonlethal damage OR cures 1d8+ 1/2 Level nonlethal. There's also "Restful Repose" which doubles healing rates during the night's sleep (but it's damage and save isn't applied to the caster until the next morning). I so far have ruled out Magic Missile but may put in something like: "Energy Bolt" that'll do a preset amount of damage in a small area with a reflex save. The main thing, I think, to striking a real balance is not giving the wizard something he can do quite often that shows up the other characters. No 1st level "Find Secret Doors" spell, no 1st level "Deals as much damage as the barbarian" spell. I'm giving one caster Hold Portal, for instance, but not "Knock".

For spells 5th level and beyond in power, I'm using Incantations from Urban Arcana.

I have to say, I think my favorite Direct Damage spell of all time was "Red Sign of Shudde'Mel" from CoC. I'd reworked the CoC magic system to do around x2 Sanity in Nonlethal damage per spell, and left the ability damage. The caster character HAD Red Sign whenever he needed it. But he refused to use it unless the situation was horribly dire. Each time he DID use it, it was pretty spectacular, but it seldom ended the combat DIRECTLY and usually left him with something like 2 STR left. So it became a situation of "stay out of the way and hold Red Sign on as many horrible baddies as possible ... then drag my useless husk out of harm's way". Hard to make that a D&D flavored spell, though.

I'm giving Nomad a small Spellcraft skill, cross-class, and 3 cantrips with no Magical Adept (he's a 4 Strong). Read Magic, Light, and Detect Magic. To cast each he has to make a DC 11 Spellcraft check, takes 1d3 points of damage and for RM or DM a Will Save, for Light a Fort Save DC 11-13 or is Winded.

Blackleaf, on the other hand, has Dedicated Magical Adept, a small list of Druid/Ranger spells, and, say, casts Healing Touch taking 2d6 - (Wis. Mod.) Nonlethal Damage and makes a Fort. save DC 10 + (Damage) or becomes Winded.

There's "Heram the Skald" I'm working on now who is a Smart1/Charismatic3 with Charismatic Magical Adept ... I've given him a very large spell list with such useful spells as Doom and Scrying but the larger damage (wild adept) and his low multiclass saves will keep him from casting many spells in a day.

I think this will keep the casters in-line with the other characters ... hitting them twice per spell will limit their utility in a single day, but nonlethal and exhaustion comes back with rest, so each day they'll be able to step back up to bat (instead of taking weeks, as per the usual rules).

GT Strong single-class characters can rip up with a double weapon TWF. Melee Smash applies equally to each end of, say, a quarterstaff and Weapon Specialization does as well. So a 5th level Strong PC with a quarterstaff already does +4 damage with each end of his stick (MS1, MS2, Spec). TWF is, ordinarily, never really worth it. But with three levels of Melee Smash and Specialization on a double weapon or two short swords, it's quite powerful.

To bring him in line with the other characters, I let Nriftor Nimblefinger take Sneak Attack as a pure Advanced Talent for fast, with no need for Exploit Weakness. He has no Martial Weapons, so he too Dual Weilds but he does it with two Daggers. As it is, for a 1shot with 4th level PCs, 1d6 Sneak Attack isn't horrible. If I did a long-term game, I'd probably cap out Sneak Attack at 4d6 dice as that + weapon and STR damage will average out forcing a MDT on most all human opponents.

I think it'll be a fun game. They'll be a morally-challenged group of temple raiders and sometime incidental do-gooders going up against evil cultists who have a dungeon complex. I'll call it "Fane of the " something-or-other, when I get around to deciding what the evil plot should be. Maybe "The Somethingorother's Fane" ... or Temple ... or Church Of ... you know the routine.

--fje
 

Rodrigo Istalindir said:

Yes, but I think he's asking what he'd need to change, not a laundry list of why GT as written is "low magic." I'm confident Psion gets it.

You're also (for casters), taking away some of the reason you want to use GT if they are going to have to spend all their talents on casting skills, but if you don't, you're screwing the non-casters.

There's nothing wrong with having the "serious" spellcasters spend all their talents on casting skills. A spellcaster should be a spellcaster-- if you want to "multiclass" into other talents, GT makes it easy; but there's no reason to expect that you can have a spellcaster/swashbuckler who is every bit the swashbuckler and a maxxed out spellcaster to boot.

I think I understand what you're saying; Psion wants to use GT because it provides options. But choosing to be a "single class" spellcaster and pouring all your talents and feats into spellcasting doesn't mean you didn't have options to begin with.

In addition to the Improved Caster Level talent, you could have an I.C.L. feat, which would keep the GT spellcaster on a pace with, for example, a sorcerer. He'd spend all his "d20M" feats and talents on "+1 caster level" each level, and he'd still have his 1/3/6/9/etc. feats for whatever, so his advancement would mirror the sorcerer. But he'd have the opportunity to branch out and take a different feat or talent every now and then.

Personally, I would keep ICL as a talent, but offer other ways to increase caster level-- ley lines, power nexuses, extra casting time, expendable and permanent fetishes/talismans, etc. But this is a matter of flavor.

Wulf
 
Last edited:

Eric Anondson said:
Grim Tales, as Wulf often says, is a toolbox. I don't think taking it and doing a High Magic variant is very feasible.
This is what I get for trying to finish typing a post with my wife chatting at me about whatever it was she was talking about.

:heh:
 

Wulf Ratbane said:
I don't get what you're describing here. You're obviously drawing a distinction between Improved Caster Level-- so what's Improved Spell Level do?

Improved Spell Level 1 - You can cast first level spells
Improved Spell Level X - You can cast X level spells (prereq the previous level.)

Rodrigo - What I am proposing would largely rip out the existing Grim Tales magic system -- forget spell burn and all that stuff -- and replace it with something that emulates the D&D magic system, except using the talent chain system.

(Recognizing that this will break CR)
 
Last edited:

Enchanted Trinkets Complete

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Remove ads

Top