Grim Tales: Martial Weapon Prof.

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Anyway, I'm reading through GT again, thinking of using it to run a homebrew fantasy campaign (because I could never get my homebrews to work with D&D rules) and I'm looking at the feats.

Martial Weapon Prof. gives you ONE martial weapon.

Exotic Weapon Prof. gives you ONE exotic weapon.

In general Exotics, stat-wise, are similar to Martial weapons but one category better in some aspect.

Each of these feats has the same pre-reqs: None.

So why would anybody who doesn't get MWP TAKE MWP for any reason? Why MWP Longsword when you can EWP Bastard Sword? Why MWP Ranseur when you can EWP Spiked Chain (well, not in MY game, but in general)?

Tough hero gets a single MWP ... Strong gets ALL MWP. If MWP is balanced as a feat with ONE martial weapon, then the Strong hero gets, effectively what? 20-30 free feats? If I have to MWP Rapier for my fast hero, why wouldn't I just EWP Spiked Chain?

I understand its about flavor considerations, partially, but we're playing with gamers, here. Even when they're being good, they're going to look at that and realize that they're better up and down the block by burning that feat on a similar-but-better EWP.

--fje

 

[shadoe]

They changed the pre req for Exotic Weapon Prof? I didn't catch that when I read the book, since I skimmed most of the feats. I wonder if that was a mistake since Exotic Weapon Prof have a pre req of +1 base attack bonus normal in d20 games.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

My bad. It's on the inner edge and I actually missed the +1 BAB bit.

So it's the same feat from D&D.

I think my issue still more or less stands, though. Is MWP worth a feat at 1 weapon at a time? If so, why does the Strong hero get every MWP in the game?

I'm just foreseeing a table full of Strong/Something PCs or a whole load of EWPs getting taken. Especially since, as with d20Modern, I'll probably be starting at 3rd level, meaning they'll pretty much all have the +1 BAB needed for EWP and flavor or no, they'll find some excuse to have used a club and a crossbow for 2 levels.

--fje

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

So it's the same feat from D&D.

It is, and I'd like to point out something you missed.

The wording on the 3.5 Martial Weapon Proficiency feat (the same text GT uses) says, "Choose a type of martial weapon..."

Exotic Weapon Proficiency says, "Choose one exotic weapon."

I think you can see where I'm going with this-- though I haven't been able to find in D&D what the "types" of Martial weapons are, and I admit to deliberately including the same ambiguity in Grim Tales. The distinction is made (one type vs. one weapon) but I cannot see that they followed it up.

As if you couldn't do it yourself, the equipment chapter gives you a good start on making "types" of martial weapons-- short blades, long blades, axes, flails, bows, etc.

I'm just foreseeing a table full of Strong/Something PCs or a whole load of EWPs getting taken.

Remember that you only get the Strong bonuses if you take Strong as your 1st character level. If you later multiclass into Strong, you don't get the weapon or armor proficiencies.

Personally, I'm rather fond of the 3 bonus core skills and scads of skill points you get for 1st level Smart hero.

Wulf

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Heh, you and me both, Wulf. I'm a skills-man. I'm playing a Cleric in another game and I was chewing my lip wishing I could trade SOMETHING out for some more skill points. A domain, SOMETHING. I ended up opting for Artifice Domain to get functionally 4 ranks in all Craft skills.

I have one player in particular who, while a good player overall, has a catch phrase:

"I just want the best character I CAN HAVE."

Which, to him, means min-maxed to the furthest extent of the law, within any given concept.

So, to him, if he had a character that used a melee weapon, he wouldn't settle for "Longsword", if MWP and EWP were the same bag, he'd ALWAYS take EWP: Bastard Sword. If the character concept involved weapons at all, he'd ALWAYS find a reason to take Strong as a first level, really, even if he were going to run Dedicated for every level after that, just to make sure he was getting "the best possible character". If MWP is one weapon, and Strong gets all of them, then that's 20 free feats, and he'd be all over that in a second, and trying to convince everybody else at the table that it was the 'most logically sound thing to do".

It's annoying, but when you know your players' are like that, it pays to make sure of things before they explode out of control. Thus the question.

I did notice the "Type" wording in the MWP, but I saw you didn't do anything in particular with it, so I figured you had read it as Longbow/Battle Axe/Long Sword as opposed to groupings, as you didn't really specify.

I'll probably have to sit down and create some MWP subgroups so "Best Possible" guy doesn't try to swing his way into making it MWP: All Martial Weapons.

I'm thinking of going by concept rather than "type", though. Wilderness weapons (for the ranger types), Urban weapons (for the rogue types), etc. I actually like having groups more than an All Or One approach, but I wanted to see if MWP: One Weapon was what that feat meant there.

Shoulda had a disclaimer, Wulf. Leaving in ambiguity can occassionally be a headache when you have part-time min-maxers.

--fje

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'll probably have to sit down and create some MWP subgroups so "Best Possible" guy doesn't try to swing his way into making it MWP: All Martial Weapons.

Again, I think the Equiipment chapter is a good guide, here. If you have 100 weapons, there WILL be a "best weapon." Keep the functional differences between weapons minimal.

I'd go with Blades (19-20/x2), axes (20/x3), flails (20/x2 with Disarm/Trip), etc.

I'm thinking of going by concept rather than "type", though. Wilderness weapons (for the ranger types), Urban weapons (for the rogue types), etc.

That's an interesting approach. You might just group martial weapons "regionally" by look/style/area of origin. (The weapons of Rohan, of Gondor, of Mordor, etc.)

Shoulda had a disclaimer, Wulf.

Well, I was pretty up front about the fact that it is for "Experienced GMs and players."

I guess I underestimated the deep psychological need for an "official ruling."

Wulf

 

[Victim]

I think you're vastly overstating the value of multiple martial weapon proficiencies. How many different weapons do characters commonly use? In my experience, people generally stick to 3-4 weapons. Most characters will pick one primary melee weapon, a small backup weapon like a dagger or handaxe, and a missile weapon. Some characters pack a reach weapon as well - characters that mostly use reach weapons usually take a full size melee weapon for close in work. Daggers are generally going to be simple. So we only have 2 or 3 weapons for which the character really needs proficiency. So it's like 3 free feats, because of diminishing returns.

Also, only the Strong Hero gets +1 BaB at first level. So other characters won't be starting with exotic weapons, and will probably have other feats to take

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Indeed. The fact that people generally only USE three or four weapons was high in my mind. I'm trying to think of what I want, what I think will be cool, etc etc AND thinking about what makes the best table for EVERYBODY involved. I know my wife likes role-playing oriented games with skill-heavy characters who have one or two interesting combat abilities. Best Possible Guy might use one weapon the whole campaign ... but on the OFF chance he MIGHT get disarmed and have to pick up Obscure Martial Weapon B for a single combat ... so to avoid the freak-out, figured I'd ask before I "house ruled". I dunno if ten years GMing is experienced or not, but in my experience when other people make house rules they're almost invaribly short-sighted and badly thought out, so I've always shied away from "My House Rules".

Had Wulf purposefully designed MWP and EWP to both apply to a "single" weapon, for a very specific design and balance reason, and I charged ahead and changed it without realizing WHY, then I'm sure I'd have had something get snarled later in the game, or even just at the table before the game.

Guess I like "official ruling" to some extent. Mostly I just don't like to charge in and change stuff if I don't know why it would be written the way it was in the first place. "I don't know why they did that, but I don't like it, so I'm gonna change it."

As to "regional" or "themed" Martial Weapon Prof. ... The more I think about it, the more I like it. One generally doesn't need 3 different Axes. But if the steppe peoples of the northern reaches use Shortbows, Scimitars, and Javelins ... That would give a character a range of weapons (Ranged/Melee, etc) with one feat, probably the only weapons they'll use for the whole campaign, but maintains the flavor and balance should they become disarmed and end up using a foreign "Martial" weapon they have no experience with. Where-as the Strong hero (Martial Weapon specialist that they are) gets disarmed, he can pick up a Glaive off the back wall and go to work, letting him shine a little without making that Martial Weapon Prof. (All) seem overwhelmingly attractive.

--fje

 

[Maester Luwin]

Hey everyone! Unearthed Arcana has weapons listed in groups & also has an interesting way to use weapons in groupings such as fighters may chose 4 groupings @ 1st level, rouges get 2 groupings, ect.. I'm planning on using something like this as I've never liked having PC's start the game knowing all MWP's. Just my 2 coppers. Thanks Maester Luwin