[Grim Tales] Spell Burn, something other than Str?

[BryonD]

Hjorimir already said it. But it isn't a fear thing. Tying magic power to physical strength is just thematically unsatisfying to me.

It doesn't work for me if they min/max and go with high STR. (common)
It doesn't work for me if they don't min/max and stay with low STR. (not so common)
And that's based almost completely on GURPS experience.
GURPS and GT are way far apart mechanically. But thematically, this one thing it just the same.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Tying magic power to physical strength is just thematically unsatisfying to me.

Our genre is rife with examples of mages pushing themselves to the limits of physical exhaustion, so that limits the thematic argument somewhat.

I think there definitely is some component of "mechanics" tied into your "thematic" objections. That is to say, if I could model the widespread and generally accepted thematic concept of mages pushing themselves to physical exhaustion, without tying that theme to the same mechanic that determines melee prowess and carrying capacity, I suspect you would be satisfied.

EDIT: Which, of course, I can do and will do. But the emphasis on playability and brevity in the Grim Tales "rules as written" didn't necessitate it.

 

[BryonD]

Thematically, the difference between a 10 STR and a 14 STR is negligible. It's an invisible and completely arbitrary thing.

I really don't see how 4 more points of spell burn capacity (a 40% increase relative to being knocked helpless) is thematically arbitrary in a game where casting spells is something you do under the direst circumstances.

I mean, really, in your campaign, as folks walk down the street, as PCs interact with NPCs, is there a tangible or visible difference between the folks with the 14 STR and those with a 10?

More to the point, is there a large, granular, visible and tangible difference between 10, 12, 13, and 14?

Is there a tangible difference walking down the street? No.
Is there a tangible difference in melee combat? Yes.
Is there a tangible difference in GT RAW magic? Yes.

So... Thematically-- well, get over it.

Shrug....
I like fun.

Mechanically, I hope we've already dispensed with. I assure you that the wizards who are buffing their STR will be dominated by the wizards with the DEX, CON, and WIS to nullify, over the long term, the short term advantage of being able to cast an extra spell.

I assure you otherwise.

I do sit around wondering whether the folks who are bothered by this are using the elite array or point buy, or the usual crackpot 4d6-drop-the-lowest scheme. Assigning the elite array requires some tough decisions.

Wulf

I haven't used dice for abilities since 3E came out.

 

[BryonD]

Our genre is rife with examples of mages pushing themselves to the limits of physical exhaustion, so that limits the thematic argument somewhat.

I think there definitely is some component of "mechanics" tied into your "thematic" objections. That is to say, if I could model the widespread and generally accepted thematic concept of mages pushing themselves to physical exhaustion, without tying that theme to the same mechanic that determines melee prowess and carrying capacity, I suspect you would be satisfied.

EDIT: Which, of course, I can do and will do. But the emphasis on playability and brevity in the Grim Tales "rules as written" didn't necessitate it.

Fair enough.
And I assure you that I very eagerly await your unveiling.

I completely agree with you that exhaustion is a well established theme.
However, I can't think of any case though where being able to lift more or hit harder made the wizard more resistant to this exhaustion. And it seems we agree on that distinction.
But clearly, that distinction is significantly more important to me, as a thematic element, then it is to you.

And that's fine. But I'm not ashamed to change the rules that need changing to make the game play the way I want it to play.

I'm not trying to piss on your shoes here. GT ROCKS. Including the magic system Except *I* don't at all care for one little thing. Someone else suggested the same thought and I agreed and suggested my alternative.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Okay, I re-read my original post. I said nothing about being afraid for game balance or being worried about powerful casters. There is no fear. What I was talking about was just a point of preference.

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth. When you said

Thematically speaking, I love how the Str burn weakens the caster. But, as I stated above, I don’t want casters molded into something that needs to be buff.

I took that as being ok with flavor but not mechanics (eg the high STR wizards swinging swords and breaking doors.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I completely agree with you that exhaustion is a well established theme.
However, I can't think of any case though where being able to lift more or hit harder made the wizard more resistant to this exhaustion. And it seems we agree on that distinction.
But clearly, that distinction is significantly more important to me, as a thematic element, then it is to you.

I guess my quibble is that this is more a mechanics argument than a thematic argument. (Which makes this entire thread a semantic argument!) You can downplay the thematic differences-- up until the point that the mechanics ruin it for you. That is to say, again, you don't see the difference between the 10 STR guy and the 14 STR guy until the stronger guy punches someone and gets +2 to hit and damage, and that's an intrusion of mechanics, not thematics.

But I'm not ashamed to change the rules that need changing to make the game play the way I want it to play.

Well, that is the intent of GT.

I'm not trying to piss on your shoes here.

Me either. I'm only arguing because it's interesting.

 

[BryonD]

I guess my quibble is that this is more a mechanics argument than a thematic argument. (Which makes this entire thread a semantic argument!) You can downplay the thematic differences-- up until the point that the mechanics ruin it for you. That is to say, again, you don't see the difference between the 10 STR guy and the 14 STR guy until the stronger guy punches someone and gets +2 to hit and damage, and that's an intrusion of mechanics, not thematics.

My idea is that a good RPG should be nothing but a mechanical resolution system.
A good RPG provides mechanics that fit the theme you are shooting for and a bad RPG provides mechanics that fly in the face of it.

It is without a doubt a mechanics arguement. But I'm not saying the mecanics are broken or out of balance or anything like that. The only thing I dislike about it is it clashes with the theme I want. Thus, I'm changing a mechanic for purely thematic reasons.

Well, that is the intent of GT.

Which is about 12th or so on the list of reasons I like GT.
(There are at least 11 other reasons I like GT that are even better than this one)

Me either. I'm only arguing because it's interesting.

Cool, I misinterpreted some of your comments as sounding like you were getting torqued. My bad. sorry there.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Cool, I misinterpreted some of your comments as sounding like you were getting torqued. My bad. sorry there.

Today? Naw. Last night? Maybe a little-- but then, I was playing poker online.

Playing poorly.

 

[Hjorimir]

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

It's all good, Rodrigo.

I guess my quibble is that this is more a mechanics argument than a thematic argument. (Which makes this entire thread a semantic argument!) You can downplay the thematic differences-- up until the point that the mechanics ruin it for you. That is to say, again, you don't see the difference between the 10 STR guy and the 14 STR guy until the stronger guy punches someone and gets +2 to hit and damage, and that's an intrusion of mechanics, not thematics.

I would actually say the difference between somebody who can military press 100 lb. vs. somebody who can do 175 lb. is very notable. I would describe somebody with a 14 Str as downright strong. Sure, he isn't Conan, but he isn't Merlin either.

I think there definitely is some component of "mechanics" tied into your "thematic" objections. That is to say, if I could model the widespread and generally accepted thematic concept of mages pushing themselves to physical exhaustion, without tying that theme to the same mechanic that determines melee prowess and carrying capacity, I suspect you would be satisfied.

EDIT: Which, of course, I can do and will do. But the emphasis on playability and brevity in the Grim Tales "rules as written" didn't necessitate it.

I agree that it the RAW doesn't necessitate a change. I was just looking for an option that might achieve much the same thing without being directly tied to Strength. From your comments I would infer that you recognize there are others who would like such a system. Otherwise you wouldn't produce it.



Is Grim Magic ready yet? You give me book, I give you monies!

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Is Grim Magic ready yet? You give me book, I give you monies!

Maybe I should try this "ransom" concept that's all the rage!