Grittier D&D (Wounds)

[Garthanos]

To me, this is absolutely the right way to add grittiness. And, it is very logical to the players. Bloodied = slightly wounded.

-1 disablement is actually quite close to well realistic ;-), anything more than that is over the top (according to the studies I read on disablement by the us gov), It was also very hard to predict whether an injury would result in disablement or not .

A character who has a special the "going get tougher" ability when bloodied... I would prefer ignore that disability till after the battle. That -1 penalty could actually pop up to a greater penalty after the heat of battle especially if you don't pace your self when you hit the penalty state. (-2 after the current fight)

If you want to simulate the rush of battle making this unpredictable you could give a saving throw to avoid it (wish I could re-find that study although gun wounds aren't exactly like magic missile shot ;-)) One of the interesting bits was that shock sometimes set in with relatively minor wounds and sometimes held off.. even for major wounds (taken by the same person)

I have dueling IMGW and places where dueling till first blood is socially important. So leaving hit points almost entirely as energy and abstractions fighting till "first blood" can be at bloodied.... so the duel isn't quite so fast and random as fighting till the first roll comes up a "hit".... in other words I get two round duels if bloodied means very bloodied and really injured which giving the -1 at bloodied feels like it does. Heroics can take out non significant minions in a round maybe two but I want the significant duel to be 4 or 8.

I don't necessarily think I need this grittiness in battle ... if I have slower healing wounds and penalties afterward.

A Poet, Priest or Politician inspiring, invigorating and convincing your character to fight on for god, king and country is actually realistic when hit points quit being wounds.

 

[CapnZapp]

To me, this is absolutely the right way to add grittiness. And, it is very logical to the players. Bloodied = slightly wounded.

Sorry if you felt I was talking to you personally. I didn't. And I definitely do not have a wish to discuss with the ones who are already convinced they're right...

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@everyone else: I was more concerned about house rules for "grit" that add long-term penalties and disablements. I think these are best kept for when you are downed. That is "criticals bypassing hp" (which often pop up in discussions like these) is probably not a good match to the basic assumptions, the fundamentals, of D&D and 4E.

 

[Nightson]

For extra grit in your D&D consider limiting the number of healing surges they get back after an extended rest. It's more abstract then the wounds, but a lot easier to keep track.

 

[misalo1]

I believe it's more trouble than it's worth to add the grit to "normal"damage.

Possibly; but as I stated in the OP... The players asked for something and I'm trying to create that something.

I had a real problem with PCs being nearly fully healed all of the time, even if there was no magic, with the hit points and healing surge system.

Me too, that is why I said yes to my Players without pause.

BTW. I know some people don't like the idea of grit (I've seen the threads). That is not why I posted... I was looking for help/ideas on my little slice of insanity.

@CapnZapp, @KarinsDad, @Garthanos, @Nightson

What did you think about my approach to 'grit'?

It is in the OP as PDF file.

 

[Garthanos]

Here is one direct response to the pdf.

"A hit that causes a wound increases your wound point total"

heck how do I determine if a hit causes a wound? do they always..
I must have missed something.

Edit: Oh there it is ... too far down the page for me ;-)
At zero hitpoints is good.

A critical hit could be the cause of massive damage why make it separate
I would say have one or the other that said not sure "massive damage" is
massive enough for my blood. I see why you chose bloodied value though
keeps things simpler.

failed death saves.. I dont see in there .. for me zero hitpoints would be one
and a failed death save would indicate it was even worse than that ... up the
wound value by 2.

I dont like extra die rolls would prefer static numbers over all so that is 5
for the coup de grace.

I'm not sure I like the extra bookkeeping over all ... more than say having
a state of being wounded but then I am not totally copacetic with temporary
hit points either couldn't they have worked out how to balance damage
reduction and left it at that?

In short I would consider simplifying ... each event increases your wound
category by 1. Taking hp injury of bloodied or more in one hit, going to zero
hit points and the first failed death save or first failed save against ongoing damage.
And being hit by a coup de grace attack would increase your wound category two.

 

[misalo1]

Static Numbers..... I Like it !!!!!
but I still like the 1-5,6-10 etc part so Static & Wound Categories of 5.

Failed Death Save...... Maybe...

What about...
Critical Hit - 1 = 1 (Duh)
0 Hit Points - 1d4 = 2
Massive Damage - 1d6 = 3
Coup de Grace - 2d4 = 5

What would you suggest as static values ?

BTW.... Thanks.

 

[Garthanos]

Static Numbers..... I Like it !!!!!
but I still like the 1-5,6-10 etc part so Static & Wound Categories of 5.

Failed Death Save...... Maybe...

What about...
Critical Hit - 1 = 1 (Duh)
0 Hit Points - 1d4 = 2
Massive Damage - 1d6 = 3
Coup de Grace - 2d4 = 5

What would you suggest as static values ?

BTW.... Thanks.

I was thinking at zero hit points it is only 1... could be as little as a bump on the head after all, but if you then fail a death save that would add 2 more since obviously there is some real underlying issue, if you failed 2 then you have hit the same value as Coup de Grace.

A failed ongoing damage check to my mind would add 1 "Its a bleeder Jim" but RAW they usually stop pretty fast... perhaps to make life grittier make bleeding wounds slower but harder to stop (ie reduce the damage they do... but make the saving throws at a penalty)

Being hit by a critical hit will almost always mean massive damage wont it? OK it might not... some spells and things.. so the 1 point doesnt hurt anything.

 

[KarinsDad]

@CapnZapp, @KarinsDad, @Garthanos, @Nightson

What did you think about my approach to 'grit'?

I think it is way too complex, hence, the reason I posted my system.

Anytime a DM adds charts and tables and a few pages of text for a single concept, I wonder if the gain is worth the effort.

 

[CapnZapp]

This thread got me thinking.

What I don't like about general penalties to attacks is that it doesn't offers any alternatives or workarounds. It's just a penalty to everything you do; thus adding fuel to the fire for the "death spiral" critics.

But what if we tie the consequences (for becoming bloodied, for being downed, for dying) to the centerpiece of the 4E design instead?

That is, powers.



As for myself, I have consequences for losing your hp foremost in my mind, so I'll use the termed "Downed Penalty". Feel free to apply my ideas to other stages of taking damage if you will.

In the simplest (but crudest) case, the Downed Penalty is losing access to one of your powers for a certain length of time. This could mean randomly selecting one of your Encounter Powers, say.

Losing an at-will should probably be reserved for a more serious injury, as this will have a greater impact on your character. I can also see that for some classes (TWB Ranger & Twin Strike) the loss of certain at-wills can be a disproportionate penalty.


At best, this will force the player to think creatively, using seldom-used powers and generally be flexible to overcome his (temporary) handicap.

At worst, it will not just make the character feel crippled (which after all is the intention ) but actually feel like there's no choice left in the character. It is in this case it's perhaps best to apply a penalty to the selected power than outright disabling the entire power. A -2 penalty is probably appropriate, remembering it only applies to a single power (compared to the RAW -1 death penalty which doesn't change the way you play the character, since it applies equally to everything)


As closing words, this suggestion is meant to feel "more natural" from the point of the 4E core design, than simple general penalties. It assumes no character becomes horribly gimped by the loss of any single power - only that the character becomes interestingly gimped by this loss...

What do you think?

 

[KarinsDad]

As closing words, this suggestion is meant to feel "more natural" from the point of the 4E core design, than simple general penalties. It assumes no character becomes horribly gimped by the loss of any single power - only that the character becomes interestingly gimped by this loss...

What do you think?

Again, I think it is "too complex". Not overly so, but randomly picking a power when the player has 7 powers in front of him will cause game slowup.

DM: "How many powers do you have?"
Player: "Seven"
DM: Rolls. "Ok, the third power is disabled"
Player: "Ok"
Player: "Wait, third power in my list, or third one I acquired?"
DM: "Third in the list"
Player: "Ok"
Player: "No, no, wait. I have nine powers"
DM: "Arggghhhh"

This kind of thing happens when people introduce more complex type rules. Players have to start counting their powers. They have to start using bookkeeping procedures to figure out when they gain their power back, etc. This type of thing does slow the game up. At least IME. Sure, the DM could maintain a list of all of the PC's powers and randomly figure this out for the players, but that just adds more of a burden on the DM.

And, you did not mention whether the DM has to keep track of this for the monsters as well. Monster #2 lost power #4 and monster #6 lost power #1 and monster #7 lost power #2. Or, are you only going to penalize the PCs?


The game actually has simple bonus and penalty to hit rules which is why house rules should follow the 4E model. It's easy to remember -1 to hit if a little red token is on the miniature indicating bloodied (PC or NPC, it doesn't matter).

Just like it's easy to remember -2 to attacks, +2 to defense from range, and grants combat advantage if the miniature is knocked over prone.

IMO, a gritty penalty to hit is a lot "more natural from the point of the 4E core design" since penalties happen in many cases already than randomly losing a power which does not happen in 4E.


The concept of a "death spiral" is basically irrelevant. Our group also plays Star Wars and nobody complains about the Condition Track. It's just a game penalty that has to be taken into account when deciding upon actions. Just like being prone makes the PC -2 to hit.

If one weakens the PC by taking away powers, it's just a different type of "death spiral". If they lose a stronger power, it means that even if they hit with a weaker power, they still do less damage per attack. It still weakens the PC.