Gritty gone?

[Sir Brennen]

More potential 4E grittiness discussion in this thread: Implementation of Long-Term Damage

(Amazing how so many topics spawned mutliple threads discussing basically the same things this past weekend.)

 

[Wulfram]

e.g. limit classes to fighter, rogue, warlord, ranger (the martial power sources)

I expect the martial classes to be the main obstacle to achieving "gritty", at least for me.

Magic, it's hard to judge objectively. We have nothing real to compare it to, so we can only look at it in the context of the world provided. A DM can still cast a low level caster as a brave but not overly exceptional practitioner of his arts.

On the other hand, the martial powers can be reasonably compared to real world capabilities, and the impression I have so far is that it even at the first level characters will be exhibiting abilities that appear preternatural at the least - which makes the characters seem too inherently special for what I would consider a gritty game.

 

[Zaruthustran]

This thread kind of reminds me of this:

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/commentary/alttext/2007/09/alttext_0912

 

[I'm A Banana]

Beyond an exercise in masochism, how is it fun to play in a game where you are unable to actually affect the game world?

I'm not a huge fan of gritty games, but at least I can give my other players credit in that they like things that are fun, and that being unable to actually affect the game world isn't fun, so that even in gritty games, I bet you can actually affect the game world.

Criminey, I know this is the 4e forum and all, but can we give our fellow posters some credit, here?

 

[cerberus2112]

Honestly, when I think 4E, I think Die Hard. Now there was a movie with a character who was tough. However, it was also a pretty gritty movie. John Maclean got hurt a lot and that pain got to him, at least from time to time. In my 4E campaign, it's hopefully going to be a lot like Die Hard from time to time.

If you want wounds to have some real effect, then you can easily come up with some rules that leave hit points and healing as they are and impose some other sort of, mostly minor, hurts and injuries that are longer lasting. (I recommend adapting the Wound system from Earthdawn, since it's pretty easy to adapt and is freely available on the web.)

I was going to start with 24 instead of Diehard, but this is exactly what I was thinking too.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Gritty stories tend to fall alongside great script writers such as David Mamet. Personally, I love grit and realism (or at least as realistic as a fantasy game can be) mixed with a small dose of low magic. Thus, the very birth of my own gaming world.

However, I can see certain faults in the way healing is handled in 4e. It's something I will have to houserule, but I do like the mechanics of the new system.

 

[Just Another User]

For that, taking away healing surges just doesn't seem to work. I'm far more concerned with the ability to regenerate all hit points from a 6 hour rest, than I am with the ability to regenerate all healing surges.

What about, recover CON modifier healing surges (without the half level, minimum 1) and 25% hit points?

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

I faced the same issue a while back. D&D 3.5 was just too "heroic" for more "down-to-earth/gritty" gaming. I finally gave up on house ruling it and switched to GURPS, which works beautifully.

When info for 4e started leaking, it quickly became obvious that they were pushing for a more heroic game. So I decided GURPS would be my system of choice from now on and gave up on D&D as a system for "gritty" gaming.

Now, that said, 3.5 was a lot of fun and 4e looks even better. I can't wait to get it, I'll just have to run two separate games. I'll use GURPS for my "gritty" games, and 4e for the more over-the-top heroic action games.

As devoted GURPS gamer, I'm really looking forward to 4e.
No reason you can't love both.

 

[Celebrim]

What about, recover CON modifier healing surges (without the half level, minimum 1) and 25% hit points?

Although it is slightly more complicated to track, I'd be interested at looking at reduced healing per healing surge instead of or in addition to playing with the number of healing surges. Playing with the amount of healing per surge means that you can be slowly worn down, without running out of healing surges.

4E assumes longer and more complicated encounters. Although the damage per hit is much less than 3E, the total damage inflicted is still going to be pretty high. Couple this with the fact that the # of healing surges is tightly coupled to the rest of the system, for example, magical healing assumes an available healing surge in the abilities we've seen so far. If you want to avoid forcing the players into a long rest after every encounter, I think you need to avoid aggressively reducing the availability of healing surges.

Instead, I think I'd measure combat fatigue with reduced ability to recover from wounds - in simulationist terms, the longer you fight the greater and greater percentage of the hit points lost represent actual physical damage.

But the ability to self heal isn't the only problem. The 100% recovery of hit points after a long rest is also a problem. So is the fact that any healing restores you fully no matter how negative your hit points have gone. This means even minor healing (like a level 1 ability) can easily cure a high level character of 50 or more hit points. You can also bounce back from negative to 25% of your max hit points spontaneously. The short duration of a rest period is something of a problem too. I could see bumping it up to 10 minutes for a short rest and 8 hours for a long rest simply to slow the conceptual pace of play. With a 6 hour rest period, its pretty easy to assault the dungeon for 2 hours, long rest to get back to 100%, assault it again for 2 hours, long rest to get back to 100%, assault it again for 2 hours and then long rest. The result is that hou have recieved and healed mortal injuries 3 times in the same day without the use of magic, and probably leveled up 2-3 times as well. First to 30th level in three weeks.

 

[Derro]

On the other hand, the martial powers can be reasonably compared to real world capabilities, and the impression I have so far is that it even at the first level characters will be exhibiting abilities that appear preternatural at the least - which makes the characters seem too inherently special for what I would consider a gritty game.

Nail on the head. And the argument that you can tone down magic-using classes is flawed as well since, in theory, all of the classes are balanced against each other and altering by reduction their features makes them sub-optimal.

I think I'm out of the gritty debate. It just doesn't strike me as possible with the 8 core classes built and powered the way they are. Heroic high fantasy seems to be the dial not the setting.

That's fine. It's D&D not Runequest. Can't say I'll be in a huge rush to pick it up though.