Gritty gone?

[Kordeth]

On the other hand, the martial powers can be reasonably compared to real world capabilities,

This, IMHO, is where you go wrong--martial powers do not represent real-world capabilities, they represent the prowess of non-magical fantastic and mythological heroes like Odysseus, Beowulf, Cuchulainn, and Conan the Barbarian.

and the impression I have so far is that it even at the first level characters will be exhibiting abilities that appear preternatural at the least - which makes the characters seem too inherently special for what I would consider a gritty game.

Bang-on right--4E is definitely a game designed around the concept that PCs are Heroes in the classical meaning of the term--it's not really built to play "Sir Roderick the Guy Lucky Enough to Survive to Third Level." That's neither a slight against 4E or the grim and gritty play style--but yeah, if you want to be a hero just because you were lucky enough not to die against a goblin or two, you probably want to look for another game system.

(For the record, I think dark, gritty fantasy is insanely awesome. I also think the action-movie/mythological heroics of 4E are awesome. I will never, ever, attempt to mix the two.)

 

[am181d]

I liked the HR that one poster suggested:

You lose a Healing Surge every time you suffer a critical or drop below 0 HP. Presumably, you'd only regain them during periods of extended non-adventuring (say a week or two of bed rest).

Pair with this another good thought that isn't mine: Being at max HP doesn't mean that you're not injured/wounded. It just means you can function well enough to get by without penalty. As that poster pointed out, you can think John McClain in DIEHARD. DIEHARD is gritty, therefore this is awesome/correct.

(In terms of in game execution: consider adding some flavor/fluff/description to your game that everyone is always aching and covered with blood and gritting their teeth but soldiering through. Encourage them to grumble and snap at each other frequently. Players love this!)

 

[Kordeth]

Pair with this another good thought that isn't mine: Being at max HP doesn't mean that you're not injured/wounded. It just means you can function well enough to get by without penalty. As that poster pointed out, you can think John McClain in DIEHARD. DIEHARD is gritty, therefore this is awesome/correct.

(In terms of in game execution: consider adding some flavor/fluff/description to your game that everyone is always aching and covered with blood and gritting their teeth but soldiering through. Encourage them to grumble and snap at each other frequently. Players love this!)

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! Thank you for making me not the only one proselytizing the "healing surges = John McClane points" model of sheer 4E badassitude.

 

[ferratus]

C That is to say, 'gritty' at least in part is an attempt to emulate something reminescent of the real world or a real historical period, often with the additional assumption that real world myths and legends were real.

...filth is common

I really, really, get upset when I see people claim that people in the middle ages didn't know how to look after themselves. They bathed regularly, changed the straw they used for bedding and had remedies for fleas, and disposed of garbage in garbage dumps. Sure there was some filth around due to animals crapping in the streets, and bathing wasn't as easy as it was before indoor plumbing, but the hygiene 1000 years ago wasn't any worse than it was 150 years ago.

 

[Kordeth]

I really, really, get upset when I see people claim that people in the middle ages didn't know how to look after themselves. They bathed regularly, changed the straw they used for bedding and had remedies for fleas, and disposed of garbage in garbage dumps. Sure there was some filth around due to animals crapping in the streets, and bathing wasn't as easy as it was before indoor plumbing, but the hygiene 1000 years ago wasn't any worse than it was 150 years ago.

Also this. "The middle ages were a time of filthy, ignorant barbarians" is right up there with "plate armor was nigh-impossible to move in" as far as silly assumptions the Victorians made about the past.

And as long as we're on the subject of historical pet peeves, people have known the world was round since 330 BC, and the Greek philosopher Eratosthenes measured the earth's circumference to within about 2% accuracy in around 240 BC.

Ancient folks was smart, dagnabbit.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Damn right and they had mammoths as labour animals! *Has been looking at too many 10,000 B.C. trailers*

Hell in some places during the Medieval Times they got along with eachother nice then we do, look at Jerusalem prior to the Crusades. I would hardly count that as gritty.

 

[Will]

'Ancient Inventions' is one of my favorite books.

Ancient Roman obstetrics equipment was unmatched until this century or so.

 

[Kordeth]

'Ancient Inventions' is one of my favorite books.

Ancient Roman obstetrics equipment was unmatched until this century or so.

Hell, as long as we're off-topic, it's also interesting to note that between the fall of Rome and the discovery of the Americas by Europeans, no new gold was put into circulation in the European economy. Every gold coin, bar, crown, or what have you was melted down and recycled.

And yes, I have run gritty campaigns where the players hauled their 5,000,000 gp dragon hoard back to town and completely annihilated the economic structure of the world.

 

[ferratus]

Hell, as long as we're off-topic, it's also interesting to note that between the fall of Rome and the discovery of the Americas by Europeans, no new gold was put into circulation in the European economy. Every gold coin, bar, crown, or what have you was melted down and recycled.

Yep, Europe by a freak of geology has almost no gold mines. That's why there was a silver standard. I really wish they had that in 4e, because gold just isn't valuable in regular D&D. I'd like it if finding gold was a really big deal, and silver hoards were more commonplace.

I guess I can still do it that way by converting gold into chests of silver, but after a few levels there wouldn't be any way to carry your treasure out of the dungeon.

P.S. Sorry about derailing the thread, but denigrating the middle ages is really a big pet peeve.

 

[Kordeth]

Yep, Europe by a freak of geology has almost no gold mines. That's why there was a silver standard. I really wish they had that in 4e, because gold just isn't valuable in regular D&D. I'd like it if finding gold was a really big deal, and silver hoards were more commonplace.

I guess I can still do it that way by converting gold into chests of silver, but after a few levels there wouldn't be any way to carry your treasure out of the dungeon.

P.S. Sorry about derailing the thread, but denigrating the middle ages is really a big pet peeve.

Well, the "easy" answer is to shift everything down one level--so what 1 gp buys you in the PHB, 1 sp buys you in the silver economy game. It doesn't get rid of the massive piles of treasure problem, but at least it doesn't exacerbate it beyond the standard assumptions of the game.

Personally, I enjoy it when players have to spend at least 30% of the treasure they find just to hire teamsters and wagons to carry everything back to town.