Grognard good...grognard bad

[Odhanan]

You know I value your judgement and experience on matters pertaining to French culture, but while the origins make an interesting tale, it's the present colloquial usage, in particular its specific connection to gaming which is recounted in my earlier post, which bears directly on the discussion.

Hey it's alright, man. I was just talking as far as the true origins of the word are concerned. I agree that, as it is applied to gaming now, the term has travelled a long way since then (though its roots in Napoleonic wargaming are very much there, of course).

 

[Odhanan]

Well, funny. That´d mean that the self-respect some people get from being indentified as grognards would crumble when they find out that they´re not being identified as "trusted veterans" but as "plain old grumblers".

LOL but that's the thing, my friend. I know the origins of the word and know what it means. I AM French after all. And I take this denomination as a badge of honor, not some mark of shame.

 

[Ariosto]

double post

 

[Ariosto]

Does a leatherneck actually support his head on a piece of cured calfskin

Used to. It was called a 'stock'.

("They grumbled, and still, always followed him"),
Grognards, by Auguste Raffet (1836)

So, one imagines it was rather a term of affection.

 

[Ourph]

Well, funny. That´d mean that the self-respect some people get from being indentified as grognards would crumble when they find out that they´re not being identified as "trusted veterans" but as "plain old grumblers".

Please don't put words in my mouth. That's not what I said, ever, in this thread.

 

[Umbran]

I'd appreciate it if you would refraine from accusing me of being disingenuous for pointing out the flaws in your assertions.

I see no such accusation. He didn't doubt your sincerity, merely how applicable your statement was in the argument.

 

[Coldwyn]

Please don't put words in my mouth. That's not what I said, ever, in this thread.

I don´t. Just reading point and counter-point of the discussion lead me to that idea.

 

[Odhanan]

So, one imagines it was rather a term of affection.

It totally was on the Emperor's part. Being a Grognard meant that you were part of the elite, one of the faithful who knew Bonaparte on the battle field and followed him everywhere in war.

 

[pemerton]

That´d mean that the self-respect some people get from being indentified as grognards would crumble when they find out that they´re not being identified as "trusted veterans" but as "plain old grumblers".

So, one imagines it was rather a term of affection.

Exactly. And as I said upthread, there is an element of irony in adopting such a label as term of endearment.

I think that it is this element of irony that creates the space for the term to become a contested one - ie those who don't like the grognards might feel that the tables are in fact turned somewhat, and that the irony consists in the grognards seeing their self-description as grumblers ironic, when in fact (from the anti-grognard's point of view) the self-description is literally true.

Given that this sort of irony is always in the eye of the beholder, it seems silly to think that one could achieve widespread agreement on the real meaning of grognard, when there is widespread disagreement on whether ongoing loyalty to old-school gaming is a good thing or not.

 

[Ariosto]

Well, I don't care whether a fellow pisses off players of new games. If he's up for a game of Column, Line and Square, then that's good enough for me.

He can grumble about how much got cut out of the latest version.

I can grumble right back about how only grognards would deploy all the power of modern digital document processing to produce something that looks ... like a Xerox of a mimeograph of an original produced on a typewriter in the 1970s.