Grr... Cleave Semantics

[Tylias]

Barbarian: "With a earsplitting roar, I wind up and clobber the High Priest of Hextor with my giant-bone greatclub." (Rolls a 16)

DM: "You hit. Roll for damage."

Barbarian: "That's a 8, + 9 for Strength and rage, two hands. 17 points of damage."

DM: "Roll for Knockdown" (opposed roll follows) "You win. Your club strikes the priest's shield with overwhelming force, and the carry through hurls him to the ground, hard. The back of his helmed head strikes the stone floor with a concussive crash."

Barbarian: "My Cleave follows through - I'm attacking the acolyte now."

DM: "Wait, the high priest is still alive."

Barbarian: "I dropped him, though, didn't I?"

DM: "Well, yeah - lemme get the books..."

Cleave: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points, killing it, etc.) you get an immediate, extra melee attack against..."



Well - it's in the spirit of the rules. Yea or Nay? Does a Knockdown constitute a "drop"? I think a Trip would not, but a Knockdown sounds okay.

 

[pontus]

Does a Knockdown constitute a "drop"?

No.

 

[Kylearan]

Well met!

Cleave: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points, killing it, etc.) you get an immediate, extra melee attack against..."

You have to deal damage that drops the victim. As the barbarian did not make the cleric drop due to damage, he does not get a cleave attack. He used the energy necessary to conduct the cleave attack for knocking down the cleric.

Kylearan

 

[Orco42]

I've thought of this one before. The rules are not too clear. I would let him get the cleave if I did not thin the player would abuse it.

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

You will continue to run into these problems as long as you take flavor text as official rules. Knockdown does not allow for a cleave. I know that it says "etc.", but it has to be an "ect." on par with dropping someone below zero hit points, or killing them. Being forced prone hardly qualifies.

A Mace of Disruption or a Vorpal Sword are probably good examples for legal "etc"s in this case. They are rather final whereas knockdown is not.

 

[Storm Raven]

Cleave: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points, killing it, etc.) you get an immediate, extra melee attack against..."

Did you drop your opponent as a result of the damage you inflicted (i.e. deal a creature enough damage to make it drop)? No, you didn't, you knocked him over with a trip attack. Hence, no Cleave.

 

[Crothian]

I agree, no cleave after knock down. I catually always thought this one was cut and dry. We never had a problem with it. And when I first read about it i brought it up to the pary and they couldn't see it, either. It just seems like a player trying to really strech the rules beyond the breaking point.